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People eat too much protein

What are your qualifications in nutrition?

What’s that to do with pointing out that having a PhD in physics doesn’t mean that someone is “qualified” in nutrition just because of that? (BTW, Justin has a master’s in physics, not a PhD)

And just to point out because it appears that I’m being misunderstood: I’m not saying that Justin is not qualified in what he does (he certainly is), but that the fact that he has a master’s in physics is not the reason.

To answer your question: I have a BSc in nutrition and a MSc and PhD in molecular biology.
 
Ok bud, I'll tell him he's not qualified to own one of the most successful nutrition consultation service out there. I'm sure he'll understand.

I dont understand your take on this. I am definitely not slighting him (he is a friend of mine) and I dont mean to speak for him but I dont think L209 is AT ALL slighting Justin. A couple pages back you said " One of the best nutrition coaches in all of strength and bb, Justin Harris (who has a PhD in this) on protein metabolism impact on development." .....so there just was a correction on that because his degree is in Atomic Physics. That does not mean Justin doesnt know his stuff. For me personally, I am way more impressed with a degree in Atomic Physics any day than a degree in nutrition. My degree is in Engineering and I know how much advanced math and physics went into that so I can just imagine the math and Physics that are in a degree in Atomic Physics. Do you disagree with that? Are you not more impressed with a degree in Atomic Physics than in Nutrition? And thats not a slight against you either L209 but truth be told Im much more impressed with your PHD in molecular biology than the one you have in Nutrition.
 
You know Dante, I may not agree with everything you say (though I agree with much of it), but you will forever be the #1 motivational poster on bodybuilding forums lol. The way you write just makes one want to drop what they're doing and go put everything into gaining as much size as possible.

I really am not trying to motivate anyone at this point in my life to be honest. I just cannot stand how people forgot the road that got them there...it has driven me nuts for years. They always report what they are doing "now"...."now" is great. You can eat the way you want to with far less excess and you can train much lighter and less progressive and kind of brainwash yourself into thinking "wow this is working!"......but the truth of the matter is what people are doing "now" that they are so very comfortable with and already weigh 250 plus is not the road they took to get to 250 plus. Its like when i see guys online on facebook tell people "all you need to do to lose weight is this...." and they conveniently forget to tell the people reading also about the "GH, clen, thyroid and L-carnitine" that they use in their arsenal.....things that if they didnt have in their arsenal they would be lost as hell trying to lose bodyfat.
Its the same thing with this subject. Ive repeated this ad nauseam over the years 'What are the two times bodybuilders gain the most muscle mass of their career? Their first 2-2.5 years of lifting when their training weights go on a progressive rocket ship, they gain strength hand over fist workout after workout (and then it all slows down as do the muscle gain)...and then later on when they get on steroids what happens? Their training weights soar again, 60-80lb dumbells turn into 90, 100, 110, 120 ,130 lb dumbells, 275lb squats turn into 365, 405, 455, 495lb squats and they quickly gain another 25-35lbs of muscle mass (and then it all slows down again as the rapid strength gains slow dramatically). But virtually everyone forgets that later on. And im not talking singles and triples....i dont care what rep range they train in, heck 20 reps for sake of argument...the fact is they are using way more in poundage for 20 reps later with the help of steroids (plus leverage/water/creatine/perfection of form etc added to that mix) than they were earlier. You would think that would be imprinted into peoples minds but it isnt. The pro bodybuilders who kept training progressively and added size thruout their careers didnt forget it. And its the same thing with eating. People just plain out forget what they did to eat up to the next level of size when they were coming up thru the ranks.
Straight on out if a billionaire comes up to you today and says "Here is my 155lb son Johnny, he wants to be a bodybuilder, I want him to be 245lbs at a reasonable bodyfat in 4 years but we will drug test him every week because i want him natural, if he tests positive your out...Ill give you 25 million dollars if you can get it done. What would someone do? Have him eat 50 calories over maintenance over the next 4 years? There isn't a chance in hell he would even get close to making it. He probably would get to 166lbs. Ill tell you what i would do. I want that 25 million. I would make that kid be a food ingesting, daily cardio doing, progressive strength training, frequent bodypart hitting human blast furnace machine for four years...instead of 208 workouts for each bodypart he would be doing 365 workouts for each bodypart (2x every 8 days) over the next 4 years....I would turn him into a blast furnace with higher protein/good fats and enough carbs so he was never flat...and this would increase as he went up the ladder. He would be walking EVERYWHERE, id make him park his car in the furthest parking spot at any grocery store, any shopping mall, anyplace he goes. Taking the dog for a walk, going to the mailbox he has to walk around the block first....etc etc etc sleep eat train walk....again I would turn this kind into a food processing blast furnace..... and I would do everything in my power to take home that 25 million. Now if that would be the process on how to do it naturally, it stands to reason that what works naturally would also most likely be the best course of action to doing it enhanced which is so much easier.
 
I dont understand your take on this. I am definitely not slighting him (he is a friend of mine) and I dont mean to speak for him but I dont think L209 is AT ALL slighting Justin. A couple pages back you said " One of the best nutrition coaches in all of strength and bb, Justin Harris (who has a PhD in this) on protein metabolism impact on development." .....so there just was a correction on that because his degree is in Atomic Physics. That does not mean Justin doesnt know his stuff. For me personally, I am way more impressed with a degree in Atomic Physics any day than a degree in nutrition. My degree is in Engineering and I know how much advanced math and physics went into that so I can just imagine the math and Physics that are in a degree in Atomic Physics. Do you disagree with that? Are you not more impressed with a degree in Atomic Physics than in Nutrition? And thats not a slight against you either L209 but truth be told Im much more impressed with your PHD in molecular biology than the one you have in Nutrition.

We have a problem devaluing education in this industry, I know you're closer to it than I, people going against the grain for views. My statement was he has a PHD and works as a psuedo nutritionist. Chemistry, biology, and physics are all bases of nutrition. The understanding you get in micro functions in any level of applied science is immense in the application of macro functions. Not to mention how important having base education is for fighting confirmation bias.
Coaches now of days charge so much more for so much less and they're simply just regurgitating their peers.

Also I'm sucking up bc I'm on his wait list.
 
Having a basis with an established education system is a great way to start, I think. And as long as those people continue to learn and take in information they will be ahead of most others. I really like when they are willing to be open to information that goes against their present way of believing. And are willing to change their opinions.
 
I mean this is straight from 2007 with Justin:

"Here's what I've been doing with my diet recently.

Monday: medium
tuesday: medium
wednesday: low
thursday: very high
friday: medium
saturday: low with a cheat meal
Sunday: low

My high days have been as high as 1,000g of carbs, but typically end up around 700-800g. I let my body tell me what to eat that day. If I'm very depleted, my body will tell me to eat. If I'm not, I won't take in quite as much.

My medium days are around 400g of carbs, and 400g of protein. I will be dropping the carbs a bit this week though. It will probably only be on tuesday's and friday's medium days. The amount will drop about 50g total, so not that much."


400 grams of protein is not low protein.
Dante this scheme it's referred to this diet ? (My diet from 2006-2007)
in the low days how are the macros?
thanks
 
I really am not trying to motivate anyone at this point in my life to be honest. I just cannot stand how people forgot the road that got them there...it has driven me nuts for years. They always report what they are doing "now"...."now" is great. You can eat the way you want to with far less excess and you can train much lighter and less progressive and kind of brainwash yourself into thinking "wow this is working!"......but the truth of the matter is what people are doing "now" that they are so very comfortable with and already weigh 250 plus is not the road they took to get to 250 plus. Its like when i see guys online on facebook tell people "all you need to do to lose weight is this...." and they conveniently forget to tell the people reading also about the "GH, clen, thyroid and L-carnitine" that they use in their arsenal.....things that if they didnt have in their arsenal they would be lost as hell trying to lose bodyfat.
Its the same thing with this subject. Ive repeated this ad nauseam over the years 'What are the two times bodybuilders gain the most muscle mass of their career? Their first 2-2.5 years of lifting when their training weights go on a progressive rocket ship, they gain strength hand over fist workout after workout (and then it all slows down as do the muscle gain)...and then later on when they get on steroids what happens? Their training weights soar again, 60-80lb dumbells turn into 90, 100, 110, 120 ,130 lb dumbells, 275lb squats turn into 365, 405, 455, 495lb squats and they quickly gain another 25-35lbs of muscle mass (and then it all slows down again as the rapid strength gains slow dramatically). But virtually everyone forgets that later on. And im not talking singles and triples....i dont care what rep range they train in, heck 20 reps for sake of argument...the fact is they are using way more in poundage for 20 reps later with the help of steroids (plus leverage/water/creatine/perfection of form etc added to that mix) than they were earlier. You would think that would be imprinted into peoples minds but it isnt. The pro bodybuilders who kept training progressively and added size thruout their careers didnt forget it. And its the same thing with eating. People just plain out forget what they did to eat up to the next level of size when they were coming up thru the ranks.
Straight on out if a billionaire comes up to you today and says "Here is my 155lb son Johnny, he wants to be a bodybuilder, I want him to be 245lbs at a reasonable bodyfat in 4 years but we will drug test him every week because i want him natural, if he tests positive your out...Ill give you 25 million dollars if you can get it done. What would someone do? Have him eat 50 calories over maintenance over the next 4 years? There isn't a chance in hell he would even get close to making it. He probably would get to 166lbs. Ill tell you what i would do. I want that 25 million. I would make that kid be a food ingesting, daily cardio doing, progressive strength training, frequent bodypart hitting human blast furnace machine for four years...instead of 208 workouts for each bodypart he would be doing 365 workouts for each bodypart (2x every 8 days) over the next 4 years....I would turn him into a blast furnace with higher protein/good fats and enough carbs so he was never flat...and this would increase as he went up the ladder. He would be walking EVERYWHERE, id make him park his car in the furthest parking spot at any grocery store, any shopping mall, anyplace he goes. Taking the dog for a walk, going to the mailbox he has to walk around the block first....etc etc etc sleep eat train walk....again I would turn this kind into a food processing blast furnace..... and I would do everything in my power to take home that 25 million. Now if that would be the process on how to do it naturally, it stands to reason that what works naturally would also most likely be the best course of action to doing it enhanced which is so much easier.

Awesome! Could read these kind of posts from you all day Dante!

Kind of unrelated, but I think I remember someone talking about a website you and dusty were possibly going to put together, a membership site i think. is there any truth to this at some point in the future?
 
No offense taken; there’s a reason why I did my undergraduate in nutrition but then became a molecular biologist and now work as a scientist.

Hope to see you share more of your knowledge on here, congrats on the school accomplishments, that took some work!
 
Also I'm sucking up bc I'm on his wait list.

I am pretty sure i can get Justin to move you up the front of the line quick...(PM me if you want me to talk to J)
 
I really am not trying to motivate anyone at this point in my life to be honest. I just cannot stand how people forgot the road that got them there...it has driven me nuts for years. They always report what they are doing "now"...."now" is great. You can eat the way you want to with far less excess and you can train much lighter and less progressive and kind of brainwash yourself into thinking "wow this is working!"......but the truth of the matter is what people are doing "now" that they are so very comfortable with and already weigh 250 plus is not the road they took to get to 250 plus. Its like when i see guys online on facebook tell people "all you need to do to lose weight is this...." and they conveniently forget to tell the people reading also about the "GH, clen, thyroid and L-carnitine" that they use in their arsenal.....things that if they didnt have in their arsenal they would be lost as hell trying to lose bodyfat.
Its the same thing with this subject. Ive repeated this ad nauseam over the years 'What are the two times bodybuilders gain the most muscle mass of their career? Their first 2-2.5 years of lifting when their training weights go on a progressive rocket ship, they gain strength hand over fist workout after workout (and then it all slows down as do the muscle gain)...and then later on when they get on steroids what happens? Their training weights soar again, 60-80lb dumbells turn into 90, 100, 110, 120 ,130 lb dumbells, 275lb squats turn into 365, 405, 455, 495lb squats and they quickly gain another 25-35lbs of muscle mass (and then it all slows down again as the rapid strength gains slow dramatically). But virtually everyone forgets that later on. And im not talking singles and triples....i dont care what rep range they train in, heck 20 reps for sake of argument...the fact is they are using way more in poundage for 20 reps later with the help of steroids (plus leverage/water/creatine/perfection of form etc added to that mix) than they were earlier. You would think that would be imprinted into peoples minds but it isnt. The pro bodybuilders who kept training progressively and added size thruout their careers didnt forget it. And its the same thing with eating. People just plain out forget what they did to eat up to the next level of size when they were coming up thru the ranks.
Straight on out if a billionaire comes up to you today and says "Here is my 155lb son Johnny, he wants to be a bodybuilder, I want him to be 245lbs at a reasonable bodyfat in 4 years but we will drug test him every week because i want him natural, if he tests positive your out...Ill give you 25 million dollars if you can get it done. What would someone do? Have him eat 50 calories over maintenance over the next 4 years? There isn't a chance in hell he would even get close to making it. He probably would get to 166lbs. Ill tell you what i would do. I want that 25 million. I would make that kid be a food ingesting, daily cardio doing, progressive strength training, frequent bodypart hitting human blast furnace machine for four years...instead of 208 workouts for each bodypart he would be doing 365 workouts for each bodypart (2x every 8 days) over the next 4 years....I would turn him into a blast furnace with higher protein/good fats and enough carbs so he was never flat...and this would increase as he went up the ladder. He would be walking EVERYWHERE, id make him park his car in the furthest parking spot at any grocery store, any shopping mall, anyplace he goes. Taking the dog for a walk, going to the mailbox he has to walk around the block first....etc etc etc sleep eat train walk....again I would turn this kind into a food processing blast furnace..... and I would do everything in my power to take home that 25 million. Now if that would be the process on how to do it naturally, it stands to reason that what works naturally would also most likely be the best course of action to doing it enhanced which is so much easier.

Totally agree on the approach. Two things I'd want to ask you Dante:

1.) Iain Valliere was recently on a podcast with Dusty Hanshaw and they talked about more than 1x/week frequency never working to bring up weak body parts...they prefer 1x/week because of how hard they train. I personally think 2x and in some cases 3x per week is more optimal, but wondering if you have any thoughts on those guys saying that.

2.) You seem to be a big fan of increased walking. Is this based on your experience? I and many others never found the proportion of muscle:fat *per amount of weight gain* to be any better with increased activity. I used to do frequent cardio in the off season. I've also done none. I do moderate amounts now for health, but I've never found it to remotely keep me leaner for a given caloric surplus. Of course adding it to a given calorie level could keep me leaner, but that is simply due to the net caloric surplus being reduced.

For what it's worth, I fully agree with you on the education. My first degree is in nutrition and frankly it's just not a very rigorous field of study compared to many others.
 
Totally agree on the approach. Two things I'd want to ask you Dante:

1.) Iain Valliere was recently on a podcast with Dusty Hanshaw and they talked about more than 1x/week frequency never working to bring up weak body parts...they prefer 1x/week because of how hard they train. I personally think 2x and in some cases 3x per week is more optimal, but wondering if you have any thoughts on those guys saying that.

2.) You seem to be a big fan of increased walking. Is this based on your experience? I and many others never found the proportion of muscle:fat *per amount of weight gain* to be any better with increased activity. I used to do frequent cardio in the off season. I've also done none. I do moderate amounts now for health, but I've never found it to remotely keep me leaner for a given caloric surplus. Of course adding it to a given calorie level could keep me leaner, but that is simply due to the net caloric surplus being reduced.

For what it's worth, I fully agree with you on the education. My first degree is in nutrition and frankly it's just not a very rigorous field of study compared to many others.

1) In advanced bodybuilders I totally agree with those thoughts that were said because recovery ability doesnt change dramatically with someones genetic blueprint and recovering from a 185lb squat for reps as a newbie is much much much easier than recovering from an advanced person's 485lb squat for reps. Thats why I do/did things like this with advanced bodybuilders and the weak bodyparts were hit 2x a week with the 1st one being a normal workout for that bodypart but the 2nd time per week was ONLY one key exercise only so the recovery could still happen. https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...the-best-training-splits.136884/#post-2427188 but in this specific dase we are talking a newbie (johnny) and I need as many workouts for bodyparts I can have (and recover) in the 4 year time period to put as much muscle mass on his frame at the fastest rate possible. Since nobody on this earth has ever figured out the exact minimum or maximum of volume/intensity/workload (and never will) that creates a hypertrophy response....and boatloads of people have done it both ways (low volume/volume) and I feel 4/5 of that "i must do this or I wont grow" deductive reasoning is borne from obsessive compulsiveness anyway. Im going to take my chances that Johnny is going to get where i want him to be much faster if he trains/remodels/trains/remodels 365 times for bodyparts over the next 4 years than only 208 times. If he gains 1/128th of an inch on his arms every workout, Ill go with gaining 2.85 inches on his arms over 1.625 inches on his arms any day of the week. And so on for other bodyparts. I want that 25 million...I have to speed up this process within an ability to recover (and remodel to a larger limb).

2) I had a hard time keeping guys leg size with any kind of vigorous cardio. You can keep peoples leg size with walking. What it also does is make a person constantly hungry so the chore of getting the food down all the time isn't such a problem. And lastly in my experience, you can turn the body into a food processing fat burning machine and you can see this happen with severely advanced bodybuilders. They have such a hard time gaining weight at a certain point because they have built so much muscle mass that just that process of retaining all that muscle mass (compared to someone who weighs 100lbs less) has that metabolic rate running at such a stellar point that it sometimes creates problems. You can see that time and time again with really really big bodybuilders. They virtually are always leaner at their largest offseason bodyweight presently as an advanced bodybuilder than they were years earlier at their offseason bodyweight when they were much younger/smaller. Jay Cutler comes to mind as a guy who got leaner and leaner in his largest offseasons as he aged. Ive been trying to help Dusty Hanshaw with that problem off and on for years. He used to be a doughboy when he was smaller. Now he has created so much muscle mass that its virtually impossible for him to gain weight and all he does is get leaner and leaner unless he forcefeeds himself past it. He has struggled for years now to gain weight because he has created a food processing fat burning muscle building blast furnace.....but to get to that point takes time and it sure doesnt happen out of the box....So there is a "trial by fire" journey to get to that point that you are so large muscularly that just doing the most minute thing with diet results with you leaning up dramatically.....but to get to that point usually means "tricking" the body with alot of food and using activity (in this case walking) to become that machine.
 
Ronnie told me at an Expo in Springfield Missouri that he was eating 500 grams of protein per day and that was when he was weighing 315. So basically around 1.5 per pound of lean bodyweight and Dorian did that too.

Dorian actually did about 1g/lb and counted protein from all sources.
 
Im going to take my chances that Johnny is going to get where i want him to be much faster if he trains/remodels/trains/remodels 365 times for bodyparts over the next 4 years than only 208 times. If he gains 1/128th of an inch on his arms every workout, Ill go with gaining 2.85 inches on his arms over 1.625 inches on his arms any day of the week. And so on for other bodyparts. I want that 25 million...I have to speed up this process within an ability to recover (and remodel to a larger limb).

How do we know that all training methods produce the same degree of growth? What if the other guy only training 208 times was doing something in his training that created a larger response and he also ended up with 2.85 inches on his arms?
 
How do we know that all training methods produce the same degree of growth? What if the other guy only training 208 times was doing something in his training that created a larger response and he also ended up with 2.85 inches on his arms?
Or maybe cant reover from 2 times each bodypart per week no matter how he trained? Dave Palumbo says he didn't grow until he started doing low volume with each bodypart trained once per week.
 
I am on very high protein diet, 90% of my protein comes from egg sours. 6 raw eggs and whole egg powder, the total of the whole egg powder equal with 60 eggs. The protein form the egg sours is 330g , I also eat some days fish and some day chicken, so I am over 400g per day, I have been doing this for 8 weeks, just want to mention that I train 2 times per day, if I would just train regularly, like some of you, I would not eat so much protein. You need to adjust your intake to your training.
 
What’s that to do with pointing out that having a PhD in physics doesn’t mean that someone is “qualified” in nutrition just because of that? (BTW, Justin has a master’s in physics, not a PhD)

And just to point out because it appears that I’m being misunderstood: I’m not saying that Justin is not qualified in what he does (he certainly is), but that the fact that he has a master’s in physics is not the reason.

To answer your question: I have a BSc in nutrition and a MSc and PhD in molecular biology.

I misunderstood and apologise.

Great to have another qualified individual here at PM. Please post often!
 
Or maybe cant reover from 2 times each bodypart per week no matter how he trained? Dave Palumbo says he didn't grow until he started doing low volume with each bodypart trained once per week.

Or maybe someone needs higher volume and lower frequency. I hate to use trendy terms and acronyms, but MEV (Minimum Effective Volume) that Mike Israetel talks about is a 100% truth. The same way people respond to different diets; people respond to different training methods and you have to find what works for you.
 
How do we know that all training methods produce the same degree of growth? What if the other guy only training 208 times was doing something in his training that created a larger response and he also ended up with 2.85 inches on his arms?

We dont. How do we know the guy only training 208 times is doing something in his training that is subpar and cant even reach the 1.6 threshold? There are no answers to those questions...but all things being equal the more times you can train recover remodel will result in more gains in size vs lesser times of train recover remodel.
 
Or maybe cant reover from 2 times each bodypart per week no matter how he trained? Dave Palumbo says he didn't grow until he started doing low volume with each bodypart trained once per week.

These are questions absolutely nobody on this earth has the definitive answer to no matter how much they want to try to prove it. You cannot gauge every individuals intensity and you cannot gauge every individuals intensity. That guy over there 6 sets of trauma could equal that guy over there who doesnt lift quite as hard 16 sets of trauma. But if a higher power came down and said "this is the perfect workout with the perfect amount of exercises, sets and reps...not one more or less...you must do this must intensity for it to be of the highest success rate".....the bottom line would be the most times you could do that "perfect workout" and recover and remodel from it...would be the absolute fastest rate you could put size on. There is no denying that. If you want huge traps and you have decided for yourself that you are going to do shrugs to get huge traps ....and you have proven to yourself that you can recover from doing progressive shrugs 2x a week and recover/remodel, there is no doubt that will create more size faster than doing them once a week over the next year to remodel from. I dont know the perfect workout and you guys dont know either, nobody does.....but I do know the more times you can do that 'perfect workout' and recover that it will beat the pants off of doing that 'perfect workout' way less than optimally. And since advanced bodybuilders have been built on low volume, high volume and all volumes in between.....and nobody gains 1 inch of muscle in todays workout but more so in multiple workouts strung together over time....it stands to reason that the "perfect frequency" is as important as anything in this equation. Too many people think in terms of "todays workout", "now", "I must do this in todays workout or I wont grow".....not a single person in the sport of bodybuilding ever put on appreciable size from one workout....it was multiple workouts over time that did it. And that is why frequency is extremely important in this whole process. A newbie bodybuilder like in the above scenario is not delving into recovery greatly with his 185lb squats and 150lb inclines....and you can speed up the process with him because he is not going to overtrain easily. If he becomes an advanced bodybuilder there is no way in hell he can recover from doing 585 squats and 385lb incline and he has to lessen the frequency
 

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