Tbol - Germany study

[Zarati]

I remember reading germans tried tbol on athletes, does anyone know what the outcome was? What were the doses?

 

[Crazy_jay]

I remember reading germans tried tbol on athletes, does anyone know what the outcome was? What were the doses?

Recently? Don't know about Germans but if my memory serves me correctly, the Russians kicked everyones ass in the Olympics using tbol. Inevitably led to steroids being banned in the olympics.

 

[Zarati]

Recently? Don't know about Germans but if my memory serves me correctly, the Russians kicked everyones ass in the Olympics using tbol. Inevitably led to steroids being banned in the olympics.

How much did they use. Germans used it year round back in the day

 

[Type-IIx]

The East Germans supposedly had their people on 0.125 mg/kg OT lean body mass. It was never published in any sort of study (for obvious reasons) and the use of OT was not due to its being an optimal PED, but rather because it was a drug of convenience (Jenapharm was a GDR pharmaceutical company and the regime could surreptitiously acquire and distribute it to athletes). The outcome was East German domination of power & speed-strength sport during its existence.

 

[juggy38]

The East Germans supposedly had their people on 0.125 mg/kg OT lean body mass. It was never published in any sort of study (for obvious reasons) and the use of OT was not due to its being an optimal PED, but rather because it was a drug of convenience (Jenapharm was a GDR pharmaceutical company and the regime could surreptitiously acquire and distribute it to athletes). The outcome was East German domination of power & speed-strength sport during its existence.

I’ve even read (just hearsay) that in those Olympic atheletes they would spike the food or liquid nutrition as to keep the athletes from knowing sometimes.

Training camp everyone gets jacked and they just think it’s the eastern block periodization lol

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Tbol supposed to be close to zero a androgenic ratio. That said, the east females that used it ended up getting masculinizing side effects .

 

[Zarati]

The East Germans supposedly had their people on 0.125 mg/kg OT lean body mass. It was never published in any sort of study (for obvious reasons) and the use of OT was not due to its being an optimal PED, but rather because it was a drug of convenience (Jenapharm was a GDR pharmaceutical company and the regime could surreptitiously acquire and distribute it to athletes). The outcome was East German domination of power & speed-strength sport during its existence.

It's very mild on liver from what I've gathered, you think one could get away with 5-10mg year round if they don't drink or don't do ofher stuff

 

[specter]

Tbol supposed to be close to zero a androgenic ratio. That said, the east females that used it ended up getting masculinizing side effects .

There has been several documentaries here in Europe about it, they gave it to little children male and female and yes several females ended up so masculine they gave up living as females altogether..

 

[Worldsfastestfatty]

The story of East Germany and Turinabol is surrounded in mythos and legend - as stated above it wasn't exactly well documented but what we do know:

East Germany was a relatively small nation (circa 17million population)

They were ranked 11th overall all time summer games medal winners by 1988 - 409 medals including 153 golds

Turinabol was favoured as it was believed by the stasi/uM that it was easier to avoid detection - however in recent years there has been suggestion the stasi also interfered in the testing process. It was however not the only anabolic or PED used - there were some andro & epitest products sprays used too along with stimulants.

Turinabol is often discounted as a "mild steroid" which is somewhat unfair - whilst it may be less systematically stressful than other orals and visual effects less impactful it does (in my experience) have significant impact on performance - particularly high-output short duration type activity and boosts recovery... Which brings me on to my final point...

The East German training routines were brutal even by eastern block standards; dissenters oft reported for every athlete that made it to the games 5 more ended up crippled, disfigured or incurred life changing Injuries as a result of the training. Upon the unification of east & West Germany in 1990 (and the cessation of the doping program if you choose to believe official story) East German athletes continued to outperform west Germans for the following 2 or 3 games.

 

[TrippplePPP]

I know a guy from Italy who was a water polo player in highschool for the country team. He is probably 60 now. I didn't get too much details or ever look it up. But he said he was given steroids as a youth and he quit as his resting heart rate was out of control and scared him. It seems like it may have been not only the Germans doing this.

 

[Type-IIx]

It's very mild on liver from what I've gathered, you think one could get away with 5-10mg year round if they don't drink or don't do ofher stuff

Nobody can answer that question for you, the individual, nor look into the future.

I think that 17AA hepatotoxicity is generally overblown, that internet forums select for "war stories" (more vividly recalled by the reader), that anecdotes shared on the forums are subject to recall biases and other pitfalls of self-report measures, and that the normal distribution bell curve (average & sub-average androgen resilience) tends to push instances of hepatotoxicity to the top of the heap in terms of quantity/number.

I'd characterize OT as an attenuated androgen (reduced androgenicity, i.e., reduced LH, FSH, SHBG suppression; reduced growth of prostate and male sex organs; reduced masculinizing effects in women) - yet still has these effects at doses of abuse (as the noteworthy effects on women that even went so far as to committing to transitioning FTM after exposure to these drugs by the GDR is factually correct and true). OT was relatively undetectable in sport up until several years ago (stanozolol was another PED whose metabolites rapidly cleared detectable limits by older testing methods). The factors: attenuated androgenicity (presenting a favorable anabolic profile); relative undetectability until fairly recently; along with its mythos among athletes (the GDR used it and its athletes were outstanding) lends itself to popular use. It's also available and a rational fit for female bodybuilders due to its favorable anabolic/androgenic profile.

I wouldn't say it's particularly nontoxic; but again, Anavar & Winstrol are highly similar drugs across all dimensions, and women get away with mild dosing of all of these drugs long term without substantial hepatotoxicity. But alas, I cannot predict the future for you brother.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Nobody can answer that question for you, the individual, nor look into the future.

I think that 17AA hepatotoxicity is generally overblown, that internet forums select for "war stories" (more vividly recalled by the reader), that anecdotes shared on the forums are subject to recall biases and other pitfalls of self-report measures, and that the normal distribution bell curve (average & sub-average androgen resilience) tends to push instances of hepatotoxicity to the top of the heap in terms of quantity/number.

I'd characterize OT as an attenuated androgen (reduced androgenicity, i.e., reduced LH, FSH, SHBG suppression; reduced growth of prostate and male sex organs; reduced masculinizing effects in women) - yet still has these effects at doses of abuse (as the noteworthy effects on women that even went so far as to committing to transitioning FTM after exposure to these drugs by the GDR is factually correct and true). OT was relatively undetectable in sport up until several years ago (stanozolol was another PED whose metabolites rapidly cleared detectable limits by older testing methods). The factors: attenuated androgenicity (presenting a favorable anabolic profile); relative undetectability until fairly recently; along with its mythos among athletes (the GDR used it and its athletes were outstanding) lends itself to popular use. It's also available and a rational fit for female bodybuilders due to its favorable anabolic/androgenic profile.

I wouldn't say it's particularly nontoxic; but again, Anavar & Winstrol are highly similar drugs across all dimensions, and women get away with mild dosing of all of these drugs long term without substantial hepatotoxicity. But alas, I cannot predict the future for you brother.

Figured i'd ask...

In the above, in regard to Stanozolol, are you speaking in terms of oral administration?

I know, well by the early 2000's, that injectable stanozolol was not a good choice (aqueous Stan injects), mainly because of the possibility of crystallization in fatty tissues that would release slowly throughout the year into the blood. I believe this is how C.J. Hunter was busted.

I guess depending on the context, and if there was no crystalizing into fat tissue, then what you stated would still be true. And you are probably noting from before 2000?

thanks.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I know a guy from Italy who was a water polo player in highschool for the country team. He is probably 60 now. I didn't get too much details or ever look it up. But he said he was given steroids as a youth and he quit as his resting heart rate was out of control and scared him. It seems like it may have been not only the Germans doing this.

It was noted by Oliver Starr many years back now (98), for what it's worth, that he knew of the Italians having a whole medical (physicians etc) system in place for doping, or to pass/beat the testing. He was using cycling (bikes, not AAS) as an example.

 

[danieltx]

Nobody can answer that question for you, the individual, nor look into the future.

I think that 17AA hepatotoxicity is generally overblown, that internet forums select for "war stories" (more vividly recalled by the reader), that anecdotes shared on the forums are subject to recall biases and other pitfalls of self-report measures, and that the normal distribution bell curve (average & sub-average androgen resilience) tends to push instances of hepatotoxicity to the top of the heap in terms of quantity/number.

I'd characterize OT as an attenuated androgen (reduced androgenicity, i.e., reduced LH, FSH, SHBG suppression; reduced growth of prostate and male sex organs; reduced masculinizing effects in women) - yet still has these effects at doses of abuse (as the noteworthy effects on women that even went so far as to committing to transitioning FTM after exposure to these drugs by the GDR is factually correct and true). OT was relatively undetectable in sport up until several years ago (stanozolol was another PED whose metabolites rapidly cleared detectable limits by older testing methods). The factors: attenuated androgenicity (presenting a favorable anabolic profile); relative undetectability until fairly recently; along with its mythos among athletes (the GDR used it and its athletes were outstanding) lends itself to popular use. It's also available and a rational fit for female bodybuilders due to its favorable anabolic/androgenic profile.

I wouldn't say it's particularly nontoxic; but again, Anavar & Winstrol are highly similar drugs across all dimensions, and women get away with mild dosing of all of these drugs long term without substantial hepatotoxicity. But alas, I cannot predict the future for you brother.

Have any information specific to injectable turinabol?

 

[Type-IIx]

Figured i'd ask...

In the above, in regard to Stanozolol, are you speaking in terms of oral administration?

I know, well by the early 2000's, that injectable stanozolol was not a good choice (aqueous Stan injects), mainly because of the possibility of crystallization in fatty tissues that would release slowly throughout the year into the blood. I believe this is how C.J. Hunter was busted.

I guess depending on the context, and if there was no crystalizing into fat tissue, then what you stated would still be true. And you are probably noting from before 2000?

thanks.

Have any information specific to injectable turinabol?

I generally consider the use of "injectable orals" to be irrational (unless one has a very rare, specific, functional deficit in the gut wall that is note even worth mentioning - or everyone on the internet will believe it applies to them) because 17AAs have half-lives in the order of hours with a relatively low volume of distribution. The liver will be exposed for quite some time to high concentrations, regardless of the route of administration; and first pass metabolism is a "mere blip" in relative terms. That is, there is no rationale in 99.98% of cases for injectable administration of Winstrol nor Turinabol, and they don't differ substantially pharmacokinetically or pharmacodynamically s.c./IM versus p.o./oral.

Testing for OT & stanozolol was ineffective (that is not to say that these were undetectable; but it took egregious error on the part of the athlete to be detected; see Ben Johnson/Speed Trap) until some time after 2012.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I generally consider the use of "injectable orals" to be irrational (unless one has a very rare, specific, functional deficit in the gut wall that is note even worth mentioning - or everyone on the internet will believe it applies to them) because 17AAs have half-lives in the order of hours with a relatively low volume of distribution. The liver will be exposed for quite some time to high concentrations, regardless of the route of administration; and first pass metabolism is a "mere blip" in relative terms. That is, there is no rationale in 99.98% of cases for injectable administration of Winstrol nor Turinabol, and they don't differ substantially pharmacokinetically or pharmacodynamically s.c./IM versus p.o./oral.

Testing for OT & stanozolol was ineffective (that is not to say that these were undetectable; but it took egregious error on the part of the athlete to be detected; see Ben Johnson/Speed Trap) until some time after 2012.

I figured you were talking about oral administration, but I wanted to be clear. I can't stand injectable stan, just no need for it. Any difference in effectiveness (the small substantial part), and i'd rather just take slightly more oral. Just not worth the hassle of painful injects and risk of abscess.

 

[Worldsfastestfatty]

I figured you were talking about oral administration, but I wanted to be clear. I can't stand injectable stan, just no need for it. Any difference in effectiveness (the small substantial part), and i'd rather just take slightly more oral. Just not worth the hassle of painful injects and risk of abscess.

In the UK currently the majority of injectable orals (or atleast the ones available to me) are oil based rather than water based so the abscess issue isn't as much a concern. I don't seem to get pip from any compounds so I can't comment on the pain aspect.

I do agree with @Type-IIx that skipping the first pass of the liver is a minor detail and the overall liver stress of Inject Vs oral administration of 17aa compounds is pretty much the same. I do however favour inject form for a number of compounds as I prefer a lower than usual dose; IE 15mg adrol or Winnie which is easier to achieve using injectable form (although to be fair I could just measure the fluid and consume orally... Although probably taste a bit icky!).

 

[luki7788]

I generally consider the use of "injectable orals" to be irrational (unless one has a very rare, specific, functional deficit in the gut wall that is note even worth mentioning - or everyone on the internet will believe it applies to them) because 17AAs have half-lives in the order of hours with a relatively low volume of distribution. The liver will be exposed for quite some time to high concentrations, regardless of the route of administration; and first pass metabolism is a "mere blip" in relative terms. That is, there is no rationale in 99.98% of cases for injectable administration of Winstrol nor Turinabol, and they don't differ substantially pharmacokinetically or pharmacodynamically s.c./IM versus p.o./oral.

Testing for OT & stanozolol was ineffective (that is not to say that these were undetectable; but it took egregious error on the part of the athlete to be detected; see Ben Johnson/Speed Trap) until some time after 2012.

I do not fully agree with that. For example, many people have a problem with the appetite for Dbol or Anadrol tablets, but the use of the Inj form solves this problem in most cases. The fact that the effect on the liver will be practically the same but the effect on the stomach will not be felt.

This is what shows the superiority of practice and real-world experience over laboratory research

 

[specter]

I do not fully agree with that. For example, many people have a problem with the appetite for Dbol or Anadrol tablets, but the use of the Inj form solves this problem in most cases. The fact that the effect on the liver will be practically the same but the effect on the stomach will not be felt.

This is what shows the superiority of practice and real-world experience over laboratory research

Anthony Roberts wrote an article about oral vs inject winstrol.

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/winstrol-oral-vs-injectable/

 

[Type-IIx]

I do not fully agree with that. For example, many people have a problem with the appetite for Dbol or Anadrol tablets, but the use of the Inj form solves this problem in most cases. The fact that the effect on the liver will be practically the same but the effect on the stomach will not be felt.

This is what shows the superiority of practice and real-world experience over laboratory research

Perhaps there is this false competition between practice and laboratory research. Perhaps all the guys I know are genetically blessed in that they do not suffer any maladies from oral 17AAs. Or perhaps practice and research are more unified than you purport and reports of GI distress by 17AAs are overblown (tied more to androgen effects on histamine than to, e.g., P-glycoprotein). It'll be hard to get to the bottom of this with macho chest pumping and such nonsense, that's for certain.