the PROTEIN DEBATE

[km2000]

I have noticed diminshing returns anything more than 250mg protein powder for myself. I found this to be an assimilation problem. What I usuallly do is add some bcaa powder and other amino acids throughout the day in between meal and found this to make a huge differance.

hey bro, how do you mix your bcaa and aa powder? I cant seem to find anything to mix them with that tastes halfway decent...

 

[marshall]

I diet on 315g Protein a day and 130-150 carbs and I wonder if I reduced protein and upped the carbs, what would happen?? More energy, better pumps?? Would I lose size while dieting? Bump for great thread, thanks guys.

This is what I did Big Lee. I was surprised when I flip flopped how much better I looked, stronger I was and recovery was better. It wasn't easy for me to do or accept, I was always looking to protein for the answer.

 

[dragonfire101]

hey bro, how do you mix your bcaa and aa powder? I cant seem to find anything to mix them with that tastes halfway decent

the ones i get come flavored already and i just mix with water

 

[BrooklynBB]

Missing the point

I think some here are missing the point that DC hammered home very plainly:

You can maintain on whatever you like as long as you're still training, but what GOT you to the point where you're comfortable or "big" in your eyes is not eating whatever you like whenever you like: It was the high protein diets and the dedication to weight training and adding more and more poundages each time you were in the gym.

So to maintain is easy, but to build you're not going to do it on 100grams of protein. For a few years I trained on moderate / low protein diet and got nicely cut up, but it wasn't until I actually brought the protien up to 1.5 times my bodyweight that things happened, and then it grew even more on 2. Right now I'd say I'd get between 1.7 / 2.0 grams / lb and am growing SLOWLY but steadily. But if I were to lower the protein, I'm sure I'd lean out a bit and not lose any significant mass.

Again: High protein will build the muscle, and training consistently will keep the muscle really regardless of diet unless you're feasting on fig newtons and coffee every day. (?)

 

[bigfatandugly]

hiya brooklyn...

lets be careful to try and not bastardize the original point of the post- no one on here is saying to eat 'whatever and whenever you like'.

that being said, another crux of this whole debate is real world experience with a diet low in protein undertaken over a prolonged period of time.

you say 'It was the high protein diets and the dedication to weight training and adding more and more poundages each time you were in the gym. '. now there is no denying that the addition of an increased workload will cause hypertrophy in a trained muscle, but how do you know high protein is responsible? who's to say a diet of 100 grams of protein and one using the injestion of certain carbs at certain times wouldnt have had the same results? you can't with absolute certainty say that.

we all have to be careful in making blanket statments that are all encompassing in regards to nutrition and this sport. there is just too much we are still learning. as a group i feel we are years ahead of the medical community regarding the 'science of food' and it had all been thru trial and error, real world development of our sport thru different ways of looking at and experimenting with nutrition and supplementation. say we take 2 atheletes, both have the same genetic structure both follow the same training protocols and have one follow a diet of high protein over 10 years and the other a lower protein diet over 10 years, the rest of his nutritent intake coming from various carb and fat sources. all other variables surrounding training and rest etc. are the same. who will gain the most lean muscle tissue? you canno say for sure the high protien dieter will. no one can. thats the beauty of this topic and this whole aspect of nutrition- no one knows for sure. its all debate.

at best the only arguement one can make for the whole high protien diet is this- " i, brooklyn (or whomever), will continue to eat a diet high in protein, not because there is definitive evidence pointing to the fact that i should, but because of the fact that we really have no idea how much protien our body really needs to build muscle, and i would rather take too much than too little just in case."

now see, that kinda makes sense to me. if i had read that, well, i cant really refute it. no one can.

all i can say is that when i was low protein and higher carb i felt better and had more energy than i can ever remember having dieting, and that is without the aid of stimulants such as caffiene or fat burners.

now, i just cant explain how my strength was increasing. logically, you could assume it was due to the energy i had from the increased carb consumption but i dunno- i have never on my best day, hopped up on every type of stimulant i could injest at the time, increased my bench by 25 pounds thru all my working sets high protien/ low carb pre contest. i honestly really do feel there is something there, and even if you wanted to argue the increase in carbs gives more energy could you not rationalise it like this...

increased carbs= more strength. increased strength= muscular hypertrophy. small amounts of protein thru the day= constant nitrogen balance= muscle growth. so the end equation may look a bit like this...substituting a portion of your protein intake for more clean clean carbs and fats and keeping caloric intake static (in comparison to a high protein/ low carb diet)= lean body tissue/ more energy.

?


BFU

 

[finny]

There is no disputing, carbs give you energy.

On the negative note, carbs give you insulin spikes, and too many of those during the day is not so great. That's why it is better to structure your meals CP, PF, PF, PF, CP, CP, etc. I've read a lot on the subject but can't recall the science behind it.

I think long-term, if you eat too many carbs, you will start gaining fat at a faster rate than if you had a higher proportion of protein to carbs. Yes, you will gain muscle too, but you might kiss single digit bf levels good buy. I would like to see guys that are 6-8% bf that consume upwards of 400g of carbs at 200-220lbs body weight.

 

[Hiramabiff]

What I would like to know is this: If one consumes let's say 400-500 grams a day of protein, how much is the body actually using? Taking into account protein turnover rate etc. I suspect it is quite low. Using a diet of high protein/high fat/no carbs versus med protein/medium fats/low carbs, which one would the body assimilate protein more efficiently?

Hypertrophy of the muscle complex has, so far, been shown to be controlled by what is known as protein turnover (the breakdown of damaged muscle proteins and creation of new and stronger ones). This process takes time. Just as the many living organisms around us in nature require time to grow, so do our muscles. In our enzymes the protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 7-10 minutes. In the liver and plasma, it's every 10 days.

And in the hemoglobin it's every 120 days. In the muscles, protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 180 days (6 months). This lends even more support to the observation that the turnover rate limits the natural body (of the non drug-using athlete, bodybuilder) in building muscle quickly.

 

[Golgo13]

400+ the only way I go when on cycle... I drop to 300, when off.

 

[balplayer]

300 400 grams? wow seems like overkill to me. i dont think its all people crack it up to be. i think the fear of losing muscle, or just not being able to build it with their given genetics is why people do this 3-400 gram thing. as my old roomie and fellow competitor can attest to, i ate maybe 100 grams per day and kept every bit of what i had. maybe its just me.

 

[diskey]

After going from sloppy diet style for some years with just added whey powder, to a counting diet I now packed on 14lbs of lean body mass since Oct06. Havent taken a mg more of aas comparing to before I started eating cleaner. My approach was 300g prot- 300g carb and 60g fat for bulking with one eat out day a week. When I change to contest prep style I went 350g prot - 200g carb and 30g fat, reason for upping protein is not because I'm afraid of loosing muscle but because I recently added igf. I seems just keep adding more mass now while I lean out pretty fast.

I think an important factor we have to consider is the use of anabolics and hgh/igf. The more you add of chemicals the more your protein synthesis increase, and the more protein your body can utilize. This is one thing all the professors and nutritionists don't take into consideration. There is probably no measure for figuring out how much you can increse protein with chemicals, just have to experiment.

The easiest why to determind your max protein intake I think is to just eat as much as you can handle without upsetting your stomach which you will notice fast if it's too high. Protein will not make you fat, increasing it will just in most cases increase your metabolism, making you more hungry and capable of eating more carbs which will make you grow even faster.

Also the more lean mass you have the more protein you can use. I remember from years ago, training all natural and beeing quite a bit smaller, I tried uping my protein to 250g. I kept pissing all the time and got diareha. Now with gear and more mass, I have no problems with 350g a day. Ofcourse your kidneys and liver will have to work more to breakdown more protein into aminos, thats quite logic, nice way to help them out if this is a concern is to just drink a litre of cranberry juice every week.

Next time I bulk up, I will just try a high protein, high carb diet with low fat. All the hype about EFAs and increased fat intake, I really don't belive in it. Your body is satisfied with 10-15g of EFAs, more than this will just be a spill over. Add a couple off egg yolks and one serving red meat and you've covered your fatty needs more than enought. Why add more fat when carbs is the body's prefered fuel source?

 

[BeastNik]

since seeing marshall's thread on mentzer and his low protien diet, and after also hear danny padilla (sp?) took in less than 75 grams of protein a day getting ready for his shows, i thought i'd share my experiences and hopefully generate some kind of logical discussion on this topic instead of watching what could have been a good thread turn into a flame war.

for the better part of the 10 years i have lifted i have continuously and strictly followed the 1.5 to 2 gram rule of thumb for protein intake. i have competed and built a physique i am happy with but continuously trying to improve. i am no genetic anomoloy, thats for sure.

now, that being said i have just returned from a 2 month hiatus in south east asia. dietary considerations there do not allow for protein intake anywhere close to what i am used to, in fact i'd be willing to bet i was less than 75 grams a day myself, and i weigh roughly 245-250 depending on my carbs from the day before.

for the whole two months i was there i continued my regular routine. the only variable absent from what i do at home and what i did there was the protien intake. i reduced my caloric intake as well and adopted a pre-contest type strategy for the two months doing 45 minutes of cardio twice a day and keeping my calories well below maintenance.

and this is what i found...

after the first 2 weeks without protein i had fully expected myself to atrophy away, losing tremendous amounts of lean tissue and strength, especially with the amount of cardio i was doing, having been brainwashed into thinking this way by every bodybuilding magasine and supplement company add for the past decade of my life. but it didnt happen. in fact before i left at the end of my 7th week, my bench had increased 25 pounds thru my working sets and i had lost a total of 11 pounds. i had more energy and stamina in the gym than i can ever remember experiencing. pumps were incredible and that 'full' feeling you so often lose pre contest was not absent this time around. it was crazy, but true.

fast forward to today... i have been home now for a week and following my regular routine. i have also adopted my old eating habits in regard to the 350- 450 grams of protien/ moderate carb rule. calories are the same. i have had an opportunity to train my entire body and am now just beginningthe second rotation of bodyparts, the first being chest, which was yesterday.

my bench has gone back down to what it was before i had left, and i have far less energy than before. truth be told, i dont even feel full anymore- almost ' fat'. scale weight has remained constant.

so, all of those who say low protein diets are do not work and only a delusional madman would follow such a routiine i sincerly doubt has even tried such a diet, but are meerly ' towing the line' when it comes to defending what an adequate protein intake 'should be'. i cant blame them- i used to be one of them.

i'm not saying anyone is wrong, or anyone is right, just relaying my own experiences with a low protein diet. this will probably be the last jug of protein i will purchase for some time and as a result be the last time i worry about my protien intake as well.

BFU

I think you just have to find what is effective for you and what is best for your goals. Im not a bodybuilder, I try to eat 2 or 3 pretty big meals and take 3 or 4 protein shakes a day and get good results especially while running a cycle.

 

[doug1]

hiya brooklyn...

l
we all have to be careful in making blanket statments that are all encompassing in regards to nutrition and this sport. there is just too much we are still learning. as a group i feel we are years ahead of the medical community regarding the 'science of food' and it had all been thru trial and error, real world development of our sport thru different ways of looking at and experimenting with nutrition and supplementation. say we take 2 atheletes, both have the same genetic structure both follow the same training protocols and have one follow a diet of high protein over 10 years and the other a lower protein diet over 10 years, the rest of his nutritent intake coming from various carb and fat sources. all other variables surrounding training and rest etc. are the same. who will gain the most lean muscle tissue? you canno say for sure the high protien dieter will. no one can. thats the beauty of this topic and this whole aspect of nutrition- no one knows for sure. its all debate.

increased carbs= more strength. increased strength= muscular hypertrophy. small amounts of protein thru the day= constant nitrogen balance= muscle growth. so the end equation may look a bit like this...substituting a portion of your protein intake for more clean clean carbs and fats and keeping caloric intake static (in comparison to a high protein/ low carb diet)= lean body tissue/ more energy.

good post btw, i've always questioned the requirements because there never has been a long term study with a controlled group. The other main reason I question is also because of the claims(probably and most likely true) of the superiority of whey protein. Well how else can you get whey protein and huge amounts (gram wise) without BUYING it from a supplement company. The same people writing the articles in the muscle mags also need sponsor's(sometimes they are one and the same) in those adds. Protein is something that's consumable(get's used up) and it's legal(unlike gear)so it's a great product to be producing. So since the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil, i sometimes question the requirements of bodybuilders....
as far as maintence of present muscle goes, i've gone for long periods on what was far, far less than the 1-3 grams per pound of lean body weight with no muscle loss at all.

 

[BrooklynBB]

you say 'It was the high protein diets and the dedication to weight training and adding more and more poundages each time you were in the gym. '. now there is no denying that the addition of an increased workload will cause hypertrophy in a trained muscle, but how do you know high protein is responsible?

Because you have 8 amino acids that absolutely MUST be provided in your diet in high concentrations in order to synthesize the rest of the protein necessary to build muscle. This is simple exercise physiology.

we all have to be careful in making blanket statments that are all encompassing in regards to nutrition and this sport. there is just too much we are still learning.

Absolutely true. But if history is a guide it's safe to assume that high protein diets build more muscle than lower protein diets. I'm open to any future literature / studies / anecdotal evidence that proves otherwise, but for the time being, higher protein = more muscle.

say we take 2 atheletes, both have the same genetic structure both follow the same training protocols and have one follow a diet of high protein over 10 years and the other a lower protein diet over 10 years, the rest of his nutritent intake coming from various carb and fat sources. all other variables surrounding training and rest etc. are the same. who will gain the most lean muscle tissue? you canno say for sure the high protien dieter will. no one can.

Agreed - and you cannot say that the low protein diet will gain more muscle either, because this study hasn't been conducted, and even if it were there are other variables such as training protocol, sleep, stress in daily life, etc, that all contribute to a persons gain in muscle, so you'd need about 100 total participants to make this relevant, evenly split down the middle so we can see how much of a difference it really makes.

Plus genetic similarity has nothing to do with a persons drive, so one person may be driven to work out harder and the other not as hard.

at best the only arguement one can make for the whole high protien diet is this- " i, brooklyn (or whomever), will continue to eat a diet high in protein, not because there is definitive evidence pointing to the fact that i should, but because of the fact that we really have no idea how much protien our body really needs to build muscle, and i would rather take too much than too little just in case."

I will never say that because first off I don't follow a high protein diet, second I don't err on the side of excess and finally it's false to say that there is no "definitive" evidence. You're talking in terms of scientific studies, I'm talking in terms of anecdotal evidence, experience, and common sense. This is akin to the argument that was puported in the 70's and 80's that said STEROIDS DONT WORK when they've been working for years as proven by those who took them.

all i can say is that when i was low protein and higher carb i felt better and had more energy than i can ever remember having dieting, and that is without the aid of stimulants such as caffiene or fat burners.

Of course you felt better - you lost some fat and dropped your glycogen stores so you had less to carry around. You probably also gained some definition in your muscle, but you no way in hell built any muscle on that diet.

now, i just cant explain how my strength was increasing. logically, you could assume it was due to the energy i had from the increased carb consumption but i dunno- i have never on my best day, hopped up on every type of stimulant i could injest at the time, increased my bench by 25 pounds thru all my working sets high protien/ low carb pre contest. i honestly really do feel there is something there, and even if you wanted to argue the increase in carbs gives more energy could you not rationalise it like this...

Why not? Carbs = energy. That makes perfect sense. Plus you're not taking into consideration tendon strength here - maybe this is the first time you've exercised the right way with more focus because of the extra energy you had. Lots of factors, never just one.

But you're trying to say that dropping the protein increased your strength, which is like saying "Ever since I dumped my girlfriend I've lifted heavier in the gym. Therefore, dumping girlfriends obviously builds muscle."

increased carbs= more strength. increased strength= muscular hypertrophy. small amounts of protein thru the day= constant nitrogen balance= muscle growth.

You don't to make blanket statements based on hyperbole and lack of evidence but you just did. I don't take in any high amounts of carbs per day yet my strength increases. Is it because carbs don't work or because they don't work for me as well as they do for you? Everyone is different.

so the end equation may look a bit like this...substituting a portion of your protein intake for more clean clean carbs and fats and keeping caloric intake static (in comparison to a high protein/ low carb diet)= lean body tissue/ more energy.

Can't make this assumption based only on your personal experience. You have to look at bodybuilders, recreational lifters, studies and metabolism and you'll be closer to the answer, and whether or not you'd like to accept it, you'd build much more muscle with a higher protein diet, and will be able to maintain it with a lower protein diet.

 

[doug1]

hey brooklyn, you sell whey protein or something?? lol

 

[sweatandscience]

I do know that before they took the weights out of most prisons that a lot of guys got huge during their bit.

Now there is little chance that all of them could get the 250+ grams of protein a day that most BB use to build their gains, and they got pretty huge.

With a hookup working in the kitchen you could almost double your caloric intake, but that's far from what most BB's eat, even with snacks from the canteen factored in.

Granted, the quality of gains are not on par with a competition bodybuilder, but those guys did gain a substantial amount of muscle even with their limited resources and I always wondered how so many could gain so much muscle on such a relatively low quality diet.

 

[Putin]

hiya brooklyn...

lets be careful to try and not bastardize the original point of the post- no one on here is saying to eat 'whatever and whenever you like'.

that being said, another crux of this whole debate is real world experience with a diet low in protein undertaken over a prolonged period of time.

you say 'It was the high protein diets and the dedication to weight training and adding more and more poundages each time you were in the gym. '. now there is no denying that the addition of an increased workload will cause hypertrophy in a trained muscle, but how do you know high protein is responsible? who's to say a diet of 100 grams of protein and one using the injestion of certain carbs at certain times wouldnt have had the same results? you can't with absolute certainty say that.

we all have to be careful in making blanket statments that are all encompassing in regards to nutrition and this sport. there is just too much we are still learning. as a group i feel we are years ahead of the medical community regarding the 'science of food' and it had all been thru trial and error, real world development of our sport thru different ways of looking at and experimenting with nutrition and supplementation. say we take 2 atheletes, both have the same genetic structure both follow the same training protocols and have one follow a diet of high protein over 10 years and the other a lower protein diet over 10 years, the rest of his nutritent intake coming from various carb and fat sources. all other variables surrounding training and rest etc. are the same. who will gain the most lean muscle tissue? you canno say for sure the high protien dieter will. no one can. thats the beauty of this topic and this whole aspect of nutrition- no one knows for sure. its all debate.

at best the only arguement one can make for the whole high protien diet is this- " i, brooklyn (or whomever), will continue to eat a diet high in protein, not because there is definitive evidence pointing to the fact that i should, but because of the fact that we really have no idea how much protien our body really needs to build muscle, and i would rather take too much than too little just in case."

now see, that kinda makes sense to me. if i had read that, well, i cant really refute it. no one can.

all i can say is that when i was low protein and higher carb i felt better and had more energy than i can ever remember having dieting, and that is without the aid of stimulants such as caffiene or fat burners.

now, i just cant explain how my strength was increasing. logically, you could assume it was due to the energy i had from the increased carb consumption but i dunno- i have never on my best day, hopped up on every type of stimulant i could injest at the time, increased my bench by 25 pounds thru all my working sets high protien/ low carb pre contest. i honestly really do feel there is something there, and even if you wanted to argue the increase in carbs gives more energy could you not rationalise it like this...

increased carbs= more strength. increased strength= muscular hypertrophy. small amounts of protein thru the day= constant nitrogen balance= muscle growth. so the end equation may look a bit like this...substituting a portion of your protein intake for more clean clean carbs and fats and keeping caloric intake static (in comparison to a high protein/ low carb diet)= lean body tissue/ more energy.

?


BFU

I completely agree with you. It's like you copied my work Who knows how much protein the body needs to build muscle?? Nobody. Just because muscles are made of protein does not mean that eating PROTEIN will build more muscles or faster.

Take bones for example, just because they consist primarily of CALCIUM, does not mean eating calcium will build stronger or bigger bones. You need a combination of calcium among other minerals to build bone.

I was surprised in the Nutrition class I took that the book said PROTEIN is NOT primarily responsible for building muscle. I went from 170lbs to 228lbs eating 60/30/10 Carbs, fats, protein.

Some guys say that they can really feel the difference when taking 400g of protein, but then at the same time they change their workouts and their drug usage and the credit goes to high protein intake?? Or maybe the higher calorie from the added protein is what counted.

You only need small ammount of protein to build muscle. Example? Go to prison, their diet consists of mostly CARBS and FATS, and little protein that they get.

 

[Putin]

t.



Can't make this assumption based only on your personal experience. You have to look at bodybuilders, recreational lifters, studies and metabolism and you'll be closer to the answer, and whether or not you'd like to accept it, you'd build much more muscle with a higher protein diet, and will be able to maintain it with a lower protein diet.

How about a study to this affect?? I'd love to see it, really. IMO, most people say this because that's what everyone else has been saying. Just like when the supplement Companies started the whole 2.2 per whatever protein, and now everyone is repeating it.

Absolutely true. But if history is a guide it's safe to assume that high protein diets build more muscle than lower protein diets. I'm open to any future literature / studies / anecdotal evidence that proves otherwise, but for the time being, higher protein = more muscle.

Well, until scientific evidence proves that high protein diets build more muscle than lower protein diet, stop saying that it does.

What I would like to know is this: If one consumes let's say 400-500 grams a day of protein, how much is the body actually using? Taking into account protein turnover rate etc. I suspect it is quite low. Using a diet of high protein/high fat/no carbs versus med protein/medium fats/low carbs, which one would the body assimilate protein more efficiently?

Hypertrophy of the muscle complex has, so far, been shown to be controlled by what is known as protein turnover (the breakdown of damaged muscle proteins and creation of new and stronger ones). This process takes time. Just as the many living organisms around us in nature require time to grow, so do our muscles. In our enzymes the protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 7-10 minutes. In the liver and plasma, it's every 10 days.

And in the hemoglobin it's every 120 days. In the muscles, protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 180 days (6 months). This lends even more support to the observation that the turnover rate limits the natural body (of the non drug-using athlete, bodybuilder) in building muscle quickly.

Makes sense. But people also have to stop comparing pro bodybuilders with themselves, thinking that if they take so much protein and get big so must they. Doesnt work like that. The last thing the body will use for energy is protein, because it's a bitch to break down, thats why the body prefers sugar as it's first source, then fat, and then protein.

I've also heard some guys say that when you workout, your body burns protein as energy. Well, in that case, I'd have no muscles after running a 10k marathon.


The whole point of the protein building muscle, is that you dont need that much of it every day to build muscle. I mean, you guys are consuming 1lbs of pure protein per day, that's 365lbs of pure protein per YEAR. How much muscle do you gain in one year???? 5lbs-10lbs, when you're already up there.

7lbs of muscle vs 365lbs of protein consumed per year. Does this equation justifies that more protein builds more muscle?? Doesnt look like that to me. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Moen]

Well I've always done it too but you gotta wonder at the logic in eating that much protein to end up with such a proportionally small conversion

 

[sammarbella]

There are a lot of theories and hipotesis in this thread.

Too much "maybes", "will be", "why not", "you don't know"...

There are also some strong facts you can contrast:

1- How many of the BIG BB's in this thread build up their bodies to 250-270 lbs with 100 or less grams per day of protein?

2- As some of you are PRO/competitors and know other ones ask them and found the rare specimens "100 or less grams" and get us the ratio %.

3- How many of the rest amateur BB's in this thread gain some serious quality weight with 100 or less grams of protein per day.

Replies to question 1,2,3 ARE facts...the rest is speculation and theories.

Remember the doctors advise based on scince: STEROIDS DON'T WORK TO BUILD STRENGH OR MUSCLES!

Real life is different.

Give us the replies from the real life EXPERIENCES AGAINST THEORIES AND SPECULATIONS.

These replies will show us what has been PROVEN TO WORK, no theories who remain not proven.

P.S. : My bet is the replies for the 3 questions (in ratio) will be very near to 0% the number of less than 100 grams per day and very next to 100% the number of more than 100 grams per day of protein.

P.S.2: Yeah i know my english is a shit...I apologize for that.

P.S.3: And finally...NO! I DON'T SELL PROTEIN!

 

[Putin]

1- How many of the BIG BB's in this thread build up their bodies to 250-270 lbs with 100 or less grams per day of protein?

Ok, take all the bodybuilders on this forum who most apply the protein theory to their diets and then ask them what their weight is. I'm only assuming that most eat high protein diets. Care to guess how many of them are over 250??

2- As some of you are PRO/competitors and know other ones ask them and found the rare specimens "100 or less grams" and get us the ratio %.

I m not getting your question.

3- How many of the rest amateur BB's in this thread gain some serious quality weight with 100 or less grams of protein per day.

I did. You should also go thru this thread and read everyone's posts. That way you wouldnt ask these 3 questions.

All of your questions have already been answered in previous posts.

P.S. Most noobs that start out using steroids, get advice from people like you to take in 400g of protein. So they can never find out if 100g of protein per day would have worked just as well or equally for them.