the PROTEIN DEBATE

[bigfatandugly]

since seeing marshall's thread on mentzer and his low protien diet, and after also hear danny padilla (sp?) took in less than 75 grams of protein a day getting ready for his shows, i thought i'd share my experiences and hopefully generate some kind of logical discussion on this topic instead of watching what could have been a good thread turn into a flame war.

for the better part of the 10 years i have lifted i have continuously and strictly followed the 1.5 to 2 gram rule of thumb for protein intake. i have competed and built a physique i am happy with but continuously trying to improve. i am no genetic anomoloy, thats for sure.

now, that being said i have just returned from a 2 month hiatus in south east asia. dietary considerations there do not allow for protein intake anywhere close to what i am used to, in fact i'd be willing to bet i was less than 75 grams a day myself, and i weigh roughly 245-250 depending on my carbs from the day before.

for the whole two months i was there i continued my regular routine. the only variable absent from what i do at home and what i did there was the protien intake. i reduced my caloric intake as well and adopted a pre-contest type strategy for the two months doing 45 minutes of cardio twice a day and keeping my calories well below maintenance.

and this is what i found...

after the first 2 weeks without protein i had fully expected myself to atrophy away, losing tremendous amounts of lean tissue and strength, especially with the amount of cardio i was doing, having been brainwashed into thinking this way by every bodybuilding magasine and supplement company add for the past decade of my life. but it didnt happen. in fact before i left at the end of my 7th week, my bench had increased 25 pounds thru my working sets and i had lost a total of 11 pounds. i had more energy and stamina in the gym than i can ever remember experiencing. pumps were incredible and that 'full' feeling you so often lose pre contest was not absent this time around. it was crazy, but true.

fast forward to today... i have been home now for a week and following my regular routine. i have also adopted my old eating habits in regard to the 350- 450 grams of protien/ moderate carb rule. calories are the same. i have had an opportunity to train my entire body and am now just beginningthe second rotation of bodyparts, the first being chest, which was yesterday.

my bench has gone back down to what it was before i had left, and i have far less energy than before. truth be told, i dont even feel full anymore- almost ' fat'. scale weight has remained constant.

so, all of those who say low protein diets are do not work and only a delusional madman would follow such a routiine i sincerly doubt has even tried such a diet, but are meerly ' towing the line' when it comes to defending what an adequate protein intake 'should be'. i cant blame them- i used to be one of them.

i'm not saying anyone is wrong, or anyone is right, just relaying my own experiences with a low protein diet. this will probably be the last jug of protein i will purchase for some time and as a result be the last time i worry about my protien intake as well.

BFU

 

[anabolic_hippie]

funny thing i go to thailand a few times a year and same thing its hard to get that protien consuption that i get at home but i always think i am going to shrivel up and i never do. i seem to switch the high protien low fat mod carb deit for a high fat mod carb and low protien diet, but i seem to get leaner and feel good, i always thought it was weird myself

 

[MrDeflation]

Great write-up!


Can you post a sample of what a typical day's meals were?

thanks

 

[Grunt76]

I personally can see a world of difference between 200g and 350g of protein a day, when using some kind of assistance.

 

[Sandblaster]

There are three issues here: 1) quality of protein, 2) amount of protein, and 3) assimilation of protein.

It seems that this debate usually gets centered around #2. But, you can take in as much as you want and if you aren't assimilating it, it doesn't matter; and you can take in a lot of protein but if its PER is low, you aren't getting what you think you are. So really the issue should be #3.

One reason I think Phil's aminos are so effective is not just the amino, but the way he recommends taking it. By sipping on it, you are making it possible to assimilate it. I have never taken the aminos, but the method seems sound. I rarely take in more than 30-40 grams at one time, but I feed frequently.

I have done the 400-500 grams per day and I never noticed a difference from 300 grams. At 300 grams that 1.2 grams per pound of bodyweight for me. I know others who have made amazing gains on those higher amounts. This leads me to believe that maybe I assimilate the protein better than they do; I don't need as much. There is a limit to protein intake and then you are forced back into the assimilation issue.

More so, the effect of combining proteins to ensure a complete amino acid profile is extremely important. And that too, I think, will matter to growth.

Just my 3 cents,
SB

 

[swervedriver]

I am currently working on a Master's degree in exercise physiology and everyone of my professors are death on high protein intake. They say that it is far to hard for the body to digest and it burns unnecessary fuel to break it down. Also there is the question of whether the body can actually utilize high amounts of protein a day and the answer is no. They say the only time that the body can utilize high amounts of protein is after an intense workout, or a game because the body is a sponge. The window for this is anywhere from 30-60 minutes after the activity. Then there is the whole thing of dehydration that goes along with high amounts of protein in ones diet. That is why some of us get bad cramps... My advisor who is a dr. of physiology says that the true way to add size is by doing a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio in carbs to protein. Otherwise he said all of the excess protein is excreted in ones urine. Thus, causing one to have expensive urine... Plus in the long run it will put to much of a strain on the kidneys and could lead to renal problems... They claim that it is the supplement companies who have manufactured the idea of high protein diets so that they can sell their products... I have had many arguments with my professors about this! However, I have since started backing off of the protein and adding carbs and "good" fats and like BFAU said I feel much better and stronger... We will see how it goes...

 

[edge250]

i dont want to start an anti-protein thread or anything but since i started working with phil my protein take has dropped from 350-400 to 240 while adding more quality fats and carbs and i have added a good bit of muscle since implementing this diet.

 

[sickboy]

I personally can see a world of difference between 200g and 350g of protein a day, when using some kind of assistance.

I totally agree with you on that bro.... Nothing has made more of a difference in my gains the last 2-3 years than upping my protein (300-350 day). I always keep my carbs pretty low and have increased my quality fats too.

 

[MAINEVENT]

Interesting post. I would also like to know what you ate on a typical day.


You mentioned the only thing different was protein intake, but what about the amount and sources of your fat intake? What about the sources of your carbs?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

since seeing marshall's thread on mentzer and his low protien diet, and after also hear danny padilla (sp?) took in less than 75 grams of protein a day getting ready for his shows, i thought i'd share my experiences and hopefully generate some kind of logical discussion on this topic instead of watching what could have been a good thread turn into a flame war.

for the better part of the 10 years i have lifted i have continuously and strictly followed the 1.5 to 2 gram rule of thumb for protein intake. i have competed and built a physique i am happy with but continuously trying to improve. i am no genetic anomoloy, thats for sure.

now, that being said i have just returned from a 2 month hiatus in south east asia. dietary considerations there do not allow for protein intake anywhere close to what i am used to, in fact i'd be willing to bet i was less than 75 grams a day myself, and i weigh roughly 245-250 depending on my carbs from the day before.

for the whole two months i was there i continued my regular routine. the only variable absent from what i do at home and what i did there was the protien intake. i reduced my caloric intake as well and adopted a pre-contest type strategy for the two months doing 45 minutes of cardio twice a day and keeping my calories well below maintenance.

and this is what i found...

after the first 2 weeks without protein i had fully expected myself to atrophy away, losing tremendous amounts of lean tissue and strength, especially with the amount of cardio i was doing, having been brainwashed into thinking this way by every bodybuilding magasine and supplement company add for the past decade of my life. but it didnt happen. in fact before i left at the end of my 7th week, my bench had increased 25 pounds thru my working sets and i had lost a total of 11 pounds. i had more energy and stamina in the gym than i can ever remember experiencing. pumps were incredible and that 'full' feeling you so often lose pre contest was not absent this time around. it was crazy, but true.

fast forward to today... i have been home now for a week and following my regular routine. i have also adopted my old eating habits in regard to the 350- 450 grams of protien/ moderate carb rule. calories are the same. i have had an opportunity to train my entire body and am now just beginningthe second rotation of bodyparts, the first being chest, which was yesterday.

my bench has gone back down to what it was before i had left, and i have far less energy than before. truth be told, i dont even feel full anymore- almost ' fat'. scale weight has remained constant.

so, all of those who say low protein diets are do not work and only a delusional madman would follow such a routiine i sincerly doubt has even tried such a diet, but are meerly ' towing the line' when it comes to defending what an adequate protein intake 'should be'. i cant blame them- i used to be one of them.

i'm not saying anyone is wrong, or anyone is right, just relaying my own experiences with a low protein diet. this will probably be the last jug of protein i will purchase for some time and as a result be the last time i worry about my protien intake as well.

BFU

so you built all the muscle mass you own on your body over the last 10 years with 350-450 grams of protien a day= muscle density/musclememory

Do you think you would of been gotten to 250 lbs with eating your South East Asia diet these past 10 years?

Did you think you were just going to waste away to some skinny runt after lifting hard for 10 years?

Ive always wondered why people forget what got them there in the first place. How many pro bodybuilders blasted bigtime food and seriously heavy weights going for their pro card and looked pretty doughy and smooth on the way there (but damn big)......then they get in the pro's and start doing "blood volume light training" and maintenance eating and say "IM MAKING THE BEST GAINS OF MY LIFE!"....of course you are--you built all your muscle mass already, tanned up, leaned out and are maintaining pretty much now. And you forgot what got you there.

I just took a 10 day vacation and dropped the creatine and 5-6 meals a day to eating restraurant meals 3 times a day when i could, no creatine...actually losing weight quickly, getting kind of dehydrated and then blasting full of food and water at the end of the trip and look like a million bucks the last couple days.....should I fool myself into thinking "oh wow this must be the diet I should follow" to build muscle mass?

 

[Sandblaster]

I am currently working on a Master's degree in exercise physiology and everyone of my professors are death on high protein intake. They say that it is far to hard for the body to digest and it burns unnecessary fuel to break it down. Also there is the question of whether the body can actually utilize high amounts of protein a day and the answer is no. They say the only time that the body can utilize high amounts of protein is after an intense workout, or a game because the body is a sponge. The window for this is anywhere from 30-60 minutes after the activity. Then there is the whole thing of dehydration that goes along with high amounts of protein in ones diet. That is why some of us get bad cramps... My advisor who is a dr. of physiology says that the true way to add size is by doing a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio in carbs to protein. Otherwise he said all of the excess protein is excreted in ones urine. Thus, causing one to have expensive urine... Plus in the long run it will put to much of a strain on the kidneys and could lead to renal problems... They claim that it is the supplement companies who have manufactured the idea of high protein diets so that they can sell their products... I have had many arguments with my professors about this! However, I have since started backing off of the protein and adding carbs and "good" fats and like BFAU said I feel much better and stronger... We will see how it goes...

The bold claim is problematic. If you're excreting more than 150mgs a day in protein, you have some kidney issues or other problems. It's called proteinuria.

**broken link removed**

If a PhD in physiology said that, and I have no reason to doubt you that he did, you need to ask him if a normally functioning kidney excretes protein in high levels. If so, he needs to give an explanation of that because I have never heard it. One function of the kidneys is to filter protein out of the urine, and that's why protein found in the urine indicates a problem with the kidneys and not necessarily the amount of protein being taken in.

SB

 

[Massive G]

I am going to echo what DC says not just because he's one of the most knowledgeable guys I know on the high protein diets and has done more for popularizing higher protein diets than anyone else on the web through tons of experience (seen 100's if not 1,000's of case studies) but because I have had similar experiences with lowered protein and "maintaining" my mass. Can people certainly get by and grow on lower than 1.5 grams a day? probably. maybe. most definitely. But will it be optimal gains??-I guess it depends on what your goals are.
No Pro or no top amatuer or even state level competitor is going to make it eating less than 100 grams a day or training once a week or etc all.
It's not that easy, if so we'd have a lot of brutally huge mass monsters walking around just "eating what ever they want" and training very infrequently.
I am not discounting what other trainers said or do but remember Dante is getting advanced guys and his system is designed for those who have tried EVERYTHING and are looking to learn how to grow again past barriers and bias and blast and break their previous best.
Nobody can sit here and discount or debate the termogenic effects of protein I have experienced it for many many years and see countless others benefit as well.
I cut my protein from 600 or more grams to 350-400 in 2004 on the advice of Phil and ate more fruits nuts and some more carbs and maintained mass very well and grew a bit but I also was training a bit differently as well, but when growing and I mean blasting to grow I am pounding protein and EFA's and moderate maounts of carbs and growing like a weed. Wehn dieting I blast protein and cut carbs. When maintaining and resting I cut my protein down and increase other foods a bit and it works well. Of course meal structure and combinations matter as well as taking the proper supps to keep the food moving and drinking tons of water.
In the end it all dpends on your goals if youare just a recreational bb'er, you can get by recreationally eating but if you wann get massive and I mean 280 300 lbs monstrously unhealthy mass you are gonna have to eat until you are sick and then eat again and that staple is gonna be protein from experience and observations in the game.

 

[finny]

Anytime you switch up to higher carbs/fats from lower carbs/fats you will get a surge of energy, you will be stronger, your muscles will be fuller. I think that is the carbohydrate/fat effect.

I would imagine if you go like that longer term, upwards of 6 months, you might start becoming softer and gain more bf....

 

[Koevoet]

My advisor who is a dr. of physiology says that the true way to add size is by doing a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio in carbs to protein. Otherwise he said all of the excess protein is excreted in ones urine. Thus, causing one to have expensive urine... Plus in the long run it will put to much of a strain on the kidneys and could lead to renal problems...

Swerve, as Sandblaster mentioned, what your advisor is telling you is counter to all current accepted medical knowledge of human protein metabolism.

I would also be interested in hearing your advisor's answer to the following studies and conclusions:

We conclude that high total protein intake does not seem to be associated with renal function decline in women with normal renal function.
Source: Knight EL. **broken link removed** Ann Intern Med. 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7. (PDF format)

At present, there is not sufficient proof to warrant public health directives aimed at restricting dietary protein intake in healthy adults for the purpose of preserving renal function.
Source: Martin et al. Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutrition & Metabolism 2005, 2:25

For individuals with normal renal function, the risks are minimal and must be balanced against the real and established risk of continued obesity.
Source: Manninen. **broken link removed** Sports Nutrition Review Journal. 1(1):45-51, 2004. (PDF format)

 

[Grunt76]

so you built all the muscle mass you own on your body over the last 10 years with 350-450 grams of protien a day= muscle density/musclememory

Do you think you would of been gotten to 250 lbs with eating your South East Asia diet these past 10 years?

Did you think you were just going to waste away to some skinny runt after lifting hard for 10 years?

Ive always wondered why people forget what got them there in the first place. How many pro bodybuilders blasted bigtime food and seriously heavy weights going for their pro card and looked pretty doughy and smooth on the way there (but damn big)......then they get in the pro's and start doing "blood volume light training" and maintenance eating and say "IM MAKING THE BEST GAINS OF MY LIFE!"....of course you are--you built all your muscle mass already, tanned up, leaned out and are maintaining pretty much now. And you forgot what got you there.

I just took a 10 day vacation and dropped the creatine and 5-6 meals a day to eating restraurant meals 3 times a day when i could, no creatine...actually losing weight quickly, getting kind of dehydrated and then blasting full of food and water at the end of the trip and look like a million bucks the last couple days.....should I fool myself into thinking "oh wow this must be the diet I should follow" to build muscle mass?

^^^
Very sound argument here. Muscle memory, rebound, etc...

 

[AWN2004]

I try to take in roughly 3-350 a day and I have found my body is able to assimilate that amount perfectly with no gas or upset stomach at all. I have tried to drop my protein intake and just not even count grams and for me personaly, it just did not work. Which is why I say if you can grow on 80 grams a day thats awesome but for me I just can't do that.

 

[bigfatandugly]

lol- looks like opened up a can of worms here, eh?

as for my diet when i was over there- it was really, really basic. staple carb source was all from rice, be it rice noodle or white rice. no grains as in wheat. alot of stir fry's with fresh vegetables and small amounts of chicken primarily. lots of curries.

i ate only when hungry, as opposed to by the clock as i have trained myself to do, i would eat at the most 4 times a day as opposed to 5-7 here. in comparison to here i found my portion sizes had decreased while i was dieting and didnt have nearly the severity in cravings as i do when dieting 'traditionally'. if i did become hungry between meals i would eat cashews. but the hunger wasnt like a rip the cupboard doors off hunger you get when your dieting, it was more of a i'm bored and want a snack type hunger. pineapple/banana/yogurt/muslei was my first meal of each day.

basically i thru out eveything i learned/ had been taught about precontest dieting- i didnt eat by the clock. i ate fruit and alot of it (compared to when i'm at home). i often trained on an empty stomach (no kidding- here you couldnt PAY me to do this...). i didnt consume much protein. i didnt follow the g.i index for carb manipulation. and can honestly say i have felt better physically doing this than i had on any past diet, and instead of watching myself 'deflate' and feel like a skeleton i had tons of energy and my strength increased as mentioned before.

i'm not saying to run out and do this. im saying what i experienced. i don't want to turn this into a pissing match.

Dante, i hate feeling like im being forced to defend myself here- i was just stating my experience...i cant tell you where i would be today if i had followed that diet for 10 years. you know i cant, but neither can you, so that in itself is a moot point. your comparing shitloading/ re-hydrating at the end of a 10 day trip to a diet that was undertaken for a period of 2 months. its difficult for me to believe you would even try to use this as an arguement to cement your stance on the matter. i can't believe you would compare a 10 day shitload to a 2 month high carb/ low protien diet and then infer that the reason i felt so good and looked so full was because i was supercompensating. after 2 months? c'mon...

Massive-i am one of the guys you mentioned who blasted his body with food and heavy weight. i knew what the fork and knife were for and i used it to get to a little over 310 my last bulk. im not a pretty- boy pumper who forgot what got me here. im just saying, did i need all that protein to do it?

of course protein has a role in building skeletal tissue. my only issue with it is do we really need to intake over a third to half of our daily calorie consumption in protien to build muscle?

have you yourself Dante, not someone you know tried a low protein diet? see, i can speak from both sides of this matter as i have now experienced each end of the spectrum. someone who hasnt tried it for themselves will not convince me no matter how many real world testamonies or how many mountains of scientific literature they provide to support stance as proof positive.

after what i experienced, albeit against my will, i am still trying hard now that im at home to get away from eating my protien. its like i have been brainwashed. it is actually hard for me to stop eating it cause i have this 'built in' fear of losing muscle, just like we have all read and have been told since we picked up our first muscle and fitness with lee haney on the cover. seriously, its like a disease. its not so bad when your there cause it isnt easy to access. here protein supplementation is like a mental addiction you have to feed. it really is kinda scary. lol. 'on the next 'Intervention' - BFU has a protein addiction that he cannot break. mentally, protein consumption is the heroin of the dieting world...'

i can honestly say i used to think anyone who would question the amount of protien needed to build thier body to be either ignorant, or stupid or both, so i really can understand how this is being seen. but unitl you try it i suggest you think twice about condemning it.

trust me guys, i cant believe it either and i went thru it. as someone mentioned, maybe there is a point after 6 months or a year of doing this that everything will go to shit, but that again is all specualtion as well until someone does it.


BFU

(edit: as a sidebar, does then nesessity for such high amounts of protien have anything to do with the amount of chemicals (peptides/hormones) now being employed by bodybuilders to achieve maximum muscualrity? if so i can see the reasoning for it from a cellular/ biological standpoint. but this is another debate altogether...)

 

[marshall]

There are three issues here: 1) quality of protein, 2) amount of protein, and 3) assimilation of protein.

It seems that this debate usually gets centered around #2. But, you can take in as much as you want and if you aren't assimilating it, it doesn't matter; and you can take in a lot of protein but if its PER is low, you aren't getting what you think you are. So really the issue should be #3.

One reason I think Phil's aminos are so effective is not just the amino, but the way he recommends taking it. By sipping on it, you are making it possible to assimilate it. I have never taken the aminos, but the method seems sound. I rarely take in more than 30-40 grams at one time, but I feed frequently.

I have done the 400-500 grams per day and I never noticed a difference from 300 grams. At 300 grams that 1.2 grams per pound of bodyweight for me. I know others who have made amazing gains on those higher amounts. This leads me to believe that maybe I assimilate the protein better than they do; I don't need as much. There is a limit to protein intake and then you are forced back into the assimilation issue.

More so, the effect of combining proteins to ensure a complete amino acid profile is extremely important. And that too, I think, will matter to growth.

Just my 3 cents,
SB

This is a very good post.

Of course anything training and nutrition wise ultimately depends on the individual. We are all uniquely different, but can be fit into general groups.

That being said, I do think the high protein craze has made alot of people soft and fat, no question about it. Everyone thinks they fit into this category to grow muscle and this clearly isn't the case.

I can grow and look fine on under 100g of protein as well as bigfatandugly found out he could. Most people probably can. Some may be able to take in a little more, some even less, but I also agree very much with swervedrivers
post, there are going to be and probably has been physical problems caused by this excessive protein intake.

I don't think anyone needs to consume 4-500g of protein, I don't care how big they are. They are more likely doing damage than harm in the long run.

 

[Massive G]

Swerve, as Sandblaster mentioned, what your advisor is telling you is counter to all current accepted medical knowledge of human protein metabolism.

I would also be interested in hearing your advisor's answer to the following studies and conclusions:

We conclude that high total protein intake does not seem to be associated with renal function decline in women with normal renal function.
Source: Knight EL. **broken link removed** Ann Intern Med. 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7. (PDF format)

At present, there is not sufficient proof to warrant public health directives aimed at restricting dietary protein intake in healthy adults for the purpose of preserving renal function.
Source: Martin et al. Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutrition & Metabolism 2005, 2:25

For individuals with normal renal function, the risks are minimal and must be balanced against the real and established risk of continued obesity.
Source: Manninen. **broken link removed** Sports Nutrition Review Journal. 1(1):45-51, 2004. (PDF format)

Thanks for compiling those Koe.
I will book mark them for future use as "the high protein diet causes damage to kidney" statements are wrong and biased. What does damage the kidney is dehydration-and controlling that and BP is esential to kidney life.
Kidney disease is progressive and I am getting off topic here but again high protein diets DO NOT damage the kidneys.
Additionally, there is protein uria present after heavy intense exercise.
Been through the ringer with a 2 nephrologists about this and damaged kidneys etc all and have seen my own blood results and 24 hr tests differe greatly from an untrained or trained state.

 

[edge250]

i think what we all gotta remember is we all are unique individuals when it comes to diet. some tolerate carbs, some dont, some need high protein some dont, etc etc. what we can do is learn from each others experiences like this thread (this aint a pissing match its another opportunity to learn) i think the key is to try all these approaches and find which one works for you the best. i think that it is great that everyone is voicing their opinion on a topic that has gone on forever in bodybuilding. threads like these are what make this board great.