training to failure

[doug1]

there are numerous ways to hypertrophy.. training to failure is just one of many.. overload ect is one of the others.. there are numerous guys who dont train to failure regular and are massive.. there are guys that train to failure that are massive.. one's pot of gold is anothers pile of crap.. it is all individual.. most powerlifters do not train to failure.. yet that hoist some massive numbers.. dc has done very well with his programs.. not all people recover well.. no matter how much they eat some people some suffer cns fatigue easily.. so do what works.. if ya like training to failure and can handle it, then so be it.. if you are gaining stopping short and that helps your recovery, then do it.. to each his own.. and remember , to make a muscle do what it is not "used to" all one needs to do is add a set or add reps.. overload can consist of numerous things.. not all are having to go to failure..

great, great points, there is no doubting the success many have had with DC etc., but for some strange reason everyone is different and responds different.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I trained with DC, so understand yuor point.

First, DC periodizes (for lack of a better word), so that "Blast" and "Cruise" phases are alternated to vary training intensities.

Second, and this is, I think, THE most important thing to making DC's program REALLY work, is that DC monitors EVERY single exercise, set, and workout EVERY training session. This, I beleive, is why guys who actually train with Dante get such great results, and guys trying to figure it out using the inpretations of others on the internet don't come anywhere near the same results.

Right on. I am also being trained by DC. Many of his clients he leaves alone for the most part though. I worked with him on my blasts for the first 6 months, but after that he trusted me to go off on my own. Many of my lifts have gone up over 100lbs in the past year.

 

[mdts]

Thanks for the opinions guys they are much appreciated.

 

[Pekkerwood]

Question a little incomplete...

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I trained differently when I was trying to increase strenght, not necessarily just size. I have had better results with total negatgive sets than training to or beyond failure. I prefer to follow Dad's advice in this case or stopping just short.

I also take into consideration avoiding injury which is more important to me the older I get.

Pekkerwood

 

[LATS]

all programs can work well if they adhere to the principals of overload and (the most important part) recuperation.. when your effort outweights your recuperative abilities the program will fail.. as i get older, my recuping is getting worse and not better..
as dad said, dc works because he is always aware of those principals (along with the frequency) and knows how to implement them into a individuals program.. i have also seen dc cut way back on the rest pauses and do single straight sets ect when the person is not recuping well.. so it is all about recuperation.. (along with the various other points)..
as i said before, i always adhered to low volume workouts and tried for overload and frequency.. that worked well for me.. but, as time goes on, i learned not to push so hard and ease up.. save some for the next workout so to speak.. that comes with age and wisdom.. ok..mainly age lol..

 

[Dad]

all programs can work well if they adhere to the principals of overload and (the most important part) recuperation.. when your effort outweights your recuperative abilities the program will fail.. as i get older, my recuping is getting worse and not better..
as dad said, dc works because he is always aware of those principals (along with the frequency) and knows how to implement them into a individuals program.. i have also seen dc cut way back on the rest pauses and do single straight sets ect when the person is not recuping well.. so it is all about recuperation.. (along with the various other points)..
as i said before, i always adhered to low volume workouts and tried for overload and frequency.. that worked well for me.. but, as time goes on, i learned not to push so hard and ease up.. save some for the next workout so to speak.. that comes with age and wisdom.. ok..mainly age lol..

VERY well said, LATS!

Toward the end of his life, Mike Mentzer said to me privately that "it's all about recovery," including the admission that training to failure all the time might not be necessary or even ideal. He would never make this statement in public though as he had to much invested in the notion of "the one and only rational training method."

 

[luckyone]

Yo Doug

i have to completely agree with all that dad and lats said but i keep the volume high, i've been doing a slight variation of Serge Nubret's system for some time now and like it a lot. I spent(wasted) many years on the HIIT stuff, never gained any muscle and was tired all the time.

How about an example of what you do for bi's and tri's using a modified Nubret approach? I've never done high volume but would be interested in giving it a shot.

Thanks!!

your brother in Christ,

Lucky

 

[doug1]

How about an example of what you do for bi's and tri's using a modified Nubret approach? I've never done high volume but would be interested in giving it a shot.

Thanks!!

your brother in Christ,

Lucky

well serge advocates a total of 32 supersets for the bis/tris done twice weekly trained alone with calves and shoulders. my variation which does change is that i will hit my tris with chest and bis with back earlier in the week, then on saturday i will do these supersets and train bis and tris together. it consists of light weight with no rest between any of the sets at all. my heart is not in that good of condition just yet, i still need to pause and catch my breath. the sets are taken well short of failure but because of the volume and light weight the pumps are incredible. it basically consists of doing two exercises for each muscle using a pretty light weight, but due to the lack of rest time the light weight gets real heavy real quick. it's not only anabolic due to the volume and blood flow but i feel also great for burning fat. he built his physique using the same light weights throughout his career, he was world champ after training for only two years. because of the light weight he has never had any injuries and still looks great as an old man.

 

[MAINEVENT]

Interesting thread. I have recently had to cut back on intensity due to some injuries. I use to go to failure on every set. Well after mutliple injuries this past year i had to cut back and use lighter weight, higher rep and NOT to failure.

Low and behold i have been getting stronger each workout. Then without thinking about it went back to failure and I was weak as shit yesterday. You'd think I would learn something from this....lol.

 

[doug1]

Interesting thread. I have recently had to cut back on intensity due to some injuries. I use to go to failure on every set. Well after mutliple injuries this past year i had to cut back and use lighter weight, higher rep and NOT to failure.

Low and behold i have been getting stronger each workout. Then without thinking about it went back to failure and I was weak as shit yesterday. You'd think I would learn something from this....lol.

yeah, it can be difficult to stop short of failure feeling like it's not effective or that your being a wuss and not training with "guts" but i do think it is still effective. i look forward to training and not dreading it and trying to "muster the energy" to move a lot of heavy weight around after working all day.

 

[Equalizer]

You guys that don't believe in training to failure, a couple things:

1) How do you know your making progress from workout to workout?

2) You will hit failure sooner or later on each exercise, then what?

3) You pretty much disagree with what Big A states about stimulating muscle growth in his " Growth Principles for Beginners" article.

 

[LATS]

equalizer.. ill do my best to answer your questions 1) (this is just a example) if one is after 3 sets of 8 repetitions with 100 pounds.. and is able to complete it.. then you would move up next workout.. you are right though.. eventually you will hit a wall and not be able to complete the series and "accidentally" hit failure.. in other words, trying to increase overload with taxing ones cns.. but, the ideal of hitting failure is not a objective.. 2) that load will be kept until required reps are performed.. of i may chuck the exercise for a while and rotate another in its place.. kinda similar to dc..3) i dont disagree with biga at all really.. remember dad and i both trained to failure almost exclusively early on in our training .. we both did the failure routine and made great gains.. now, we dont train to failure and are making great gains.. it is all about recuperation.. i cant recup well.. never could .. even in my training to failure days i recuped poorly and had to train on a eod routine to be able to go to such intensities.. but, now, my recuping is not any better and the injuries are adding up ect.. so i cut back to keep up with my recup abilities instead of trying to force myself to recup.. training to failure was a valuable tool to me .. but, now, i do other things .. i have moved on to different tools, so to speak..

 

[Equalizer]

LATS,
I've noticed that a number of current and past pro bodybuilders, Lee Haney, Lou Ferrigno, Jay Cutler, Ron Coleman, etc. train in such a way where they will do 3, 4, or 5 sets of each exercise and will add weight each set but keep the number of reps the same and work up to a top set that is close to failure but not all the way to failure. A form of pyramiding but without dropping the reps each set. What is your opinion of this type of training style?

As far as going to failure, I think it's a good way to train, at least for some people, but generally needs to be cycled with 1-2 weeks of sub-failure workouts every few weeks or so to keep from overtraining. I think maybe Mentzer was on the right track the first time back when he advised people to take layoffs after hitting sticking points.Then later he starting telling people to just keep spacing their workouts furthur and furthur a part and that usually ended up have negative effects.

 

[EastBeast]

Not one of us has ever "grown" in the gym (physically). We have all experienced our growth during rest/recovery (sleep). While sleeping is when the body is programmed to do it's "repairs", and over compensate for the stresses to which it has been subjected. However, it can't do this without the proper "tools"-nutrients, and hormones. And, it has no reason to do this, unless it has incurred some amount of stress it is not acustomed to. We are all programmed differently, to some degree, but as we all know, the key is finding the right combination of physical stress, nutrition, and rest. Each has to have a balance in order to maximize gains. At least that's what makes sense to me.

 

[BigYNY]

very last set of each exercise