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Chat with a British Pro on PCT/Going off Vs Blasting /Crusing

devenidas

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 was having a conversation with someone who is doing quite well in bbing and has made a mark in British bodybuilding scene/IFBB and this guy was adamant that I should go off at 36 years of age and do a traditional PCT. He said that considering I have been on for 2 years straight (blasting and crusing) I should do this. I was off everything before that for a good looong period of time, zero no super supps, nothing at all.


My argument to him was even if i go off and do a PCT what am i going to achieve after that ?


Am I going to be able to carry the amount of lean tissue I have on those not so fantastic "recovered" natty levels whatever that might be ? 


No 


Is my sex drive going to be great at 36 heading to 40 ?


No 


Am I going to be feeling physically/mentally / hormonally great


no


 


I stressed the argument with him that even if I recover my whatever natural production which blood work will show in due course, is it going to be good enough for me to feel and look the way I do. I am confident the answer to that is a big fat no!


So what's the point of putting PCT drugs in my body, feeling crappy on clomid and then after PCT give it 2-3-4 months again feeling low ONLY to put the pin in after that time and he was still like no mate I still recommend to anyone going off and doing a PCT and recover yourselves and stay off for little while and then jump back on!   


I just could not get his logic. I think he was talking from the traditional point of view, back in the day stuff . If I was a 20 something year old kid ya cool i would need to go off and do PCT and recover HPTA function and go again for cycle and so on. That would be sensible.

He did not buy anything I said to him.


I have been doing this shit since i was 17 year old kid and i will be 3fucking6 next month. 


Yes I use to do PCT in my younger days. Yes i use to do Time on = Time off. 


Old school cycling but game changed at 34 years old and it wont be getting better naturally at 36 years of age I know that for a fact!

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UKBodybuilder

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I'd love to hear the answers to this. The only logic I can think he'd be referring to, is to keep your natural system periodically functioning, in case that you'd want to use it again in the future. However, I'm pretty sure triptolerin can solve that issue resulting from long term steroid shutdown anyway..
Alternatively he may be saying this is necessary as periodically coming off is allows receptor upregulation, which in turn makes steroids more effective. Cruising doesn't allow receptors to upregulate to the same level. Again this may happen at the cost of gains, so perhaps not totally logically either..

I'd be surprised if any of the pros ever come off. It doesn't make sense, why would they..
 
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little slice

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I'd love to hear the answers to this. The only logic I can think he'd be referring to, is to keep your natural system periodically functioning, in case that you'd want to use it again in the future. However, I'm pretty sure triptolerin can solve that issue resulting from long term steroid shutdown anyway..
Alternatively he may be saying this is necessary as periodically coming off is allows receptor upregulation, which in turn makes steroids more effective. Cruising doesn't allow receptors to upregulate to the same level. Again this may happen at the cost of gains, so perhaps not totally logically either..

I'd be surprised if any of the pros ever come off. It doesn't make sense, why would they..


(citation needed)
 

UKBodybuilder

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(citation needed)
No citation sorry just knowledge. Referring to: Androgen receptor down regulation due to supraphysiological levels of steroid hormones.
And I know that many don't believe this exists but many believe it does. I assume it to be true based on experience and my educational background.

Again I'm just trying to come up with reasons for why the British pro would be condoning cycling off.
 
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emeric delczeg

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I'd love to hear the answers to this. The only logic I can think he'd be referring to, is to keep your natural system periodically functioning, in case that you'd want to use it again in the future. However, I'm pretty sure triptolerin can solve that issue resulting from long term steroid shutdown anyway..
Alternatively he may be saying this is necessary as periodically coming off is allows receptor upregulation, which in turn makes steroids more effective. Cruising doesn't allow receptors to upregulate to the same level. Again this may happen at the cost of gains, so perhaps not totally logically either..

I'd be surprised if any of the pros ever come off. It doesn't make sense, why would they..
Downregulation of receptors happens when receptors have been chronically exposed to an excessive amount of drugs for a longer period of time. You can up regulate the receptor by lowering the amount of drugs or stop using it. I would lover the doze instead stop cold, this would results in super-sensitized receptors. During the up regulation period I would use 5 to 10mg per day only. It works, I was doing it for many years.
 

Allday

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(citation needed)
No citation sorry just knowledge. Referring to: Androgen receptor down regulation due to supraphysiological levels of steroid hormones.
And I know that many don't believe this exists but many believe it does. I assume it to be true based on experience and my educational background.


Again I'm just trying to come up with reasons for why the British pro would be condoning cycling off.
a.k.a. The Journal of Broscience Quarterly.
 

biglizard225

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I refer back to Matt Porter here because he came off cold turkey and fasted himself and did everything the exact opposite way of trying to preserve lean tissue and hormones. Obviously he was kind of the extreme case but look at how well he looks on what he "claims" to be TRT dosing of test and a few IUs of Pharm GH. I think he looks phenomenal and he's doing it on what most of us would consider nothing.

Hope that helps answer your question bro. MP is pretty smart dude and granted has good Gentics and response with a fast metabolism but I definetly think we can learn something from his little endeavor
 

Love_to_Bodybuild

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Downregulation of receptors happens when receptors have been chronically exposed to an excessive amount of drugs for a longer period of time. You can up regulate the receptor by lowering the amount of drugs or stop using it. I would lover the doze instead stop cold, this would results in super-sensitized receptors. During the up regulation period I would use 5 to 10mg per day only. It works, I was doing it for many years.
great insight as always emeric. You are so intelligent at this area . Thank you

I seem to feel much more stable on sub-q trt dosing than IM. I recently went out of town and didn't feel like bringing my insulin syringe with me for sub q every day, and did an Im, and seemed to feel great first few days, then , drop dramatically on 3-4 day, then again I most definitely could be wrong and it could have been unrelated. Next time may have to travel and take my sub q shots

I refer back to Matt Porter here because he came off cold turkey and fasted himself and did everything the exact opposite way of trying to preserve lean tissue and hormones. Obviously he was kind of the extreme case but look at how well he looks on what he "claims" to be TRT dosing of test and a few IUs of Pharm GH. I think he looks phenomenal and he's doing it on what most of us would consider nothing.

Hope that helps answer your question bro. MP is pretty smart dude and granted has good Gentics and response with a fast metabolism but I definetly think we can learn something from his little endeavor
Matt Porter never said trt , he said, HRT in his most recent interview on RxMuscle.


I started using hormones at 23.5 years old and did ten solo oral cycles until age 31, then after being shut down a year and a half and trying to get it up I was put on trt at age 33. I think HRt and TRt are both healthy, just take time off hrt, be responsible, do trt dosing, get bloodwork.
 

bg091593

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Difference between TRT and HRT is???? I believe he says HRT because he's also in an iu or two of GH.

Otherwise they are used interchangeably.
 

devenidas

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Difference between TRT and HRT is???? I believe he says HRT because he's also in an iu or two of GH.

Otherwise they are used interchangeably.
x2 i agree.

HRT is a term could be used for men or women.

estrogen replacement therapy

or testosterone replacement therapy

TRT is specific to males as we all know.

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mujeriego

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Downregulation of receptors happens when receptors have been chronically exposed to an excessive amount of drugs for a longer period of time. You can up regulate the receptor by lowering the amount of drugs or stop using it. I would lover the doze instead stop cold, this would results in super-sensitized receptors. During the up regulation period I would use 5 to 10mg per day only. It works, I was doing it for many years.
Exactly there's no difference in coming off and having your endogenous T levels within range (if you recover well) to achieving the same thing with exogenous T via trt doses which is what you're supposed to do when going on a cruise. Your receptors recognise Testosterone for what it is regardless if it's exogenous or endogenous. So coming completely off isn't going to do anything more than just going on trt doses in regards to receptor sensitivity
 

Phidias

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 game changed at 34 years old and it wont be getting better naturally at 36 years of age I know that for a fact!
For what it's worth, Dev, if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely NOT listen to your pro friend, and instead just keep on following that TRT/cruise path I've chosen... as you rightly outlined, you're not 20 anymore, and I didn't hear you say you wanted kids at this point in your life...

Lowering dosages to 150-200mg Test/week for months will anyways be low enough to make AAS effective again when you re-introduce them in some heavier course later.

Coming off cold turkey at 36 after years of playing with hormones at all kind of doses would just be asking for trouble... best way to feel EXTREMELY shitty without even being sure to ever recover... just to go back on at some point... NO! ;)
 

devenidas

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Downregulation of receptors happens when receptors have been chronically exposed to an excessive amount of drugs for a longer period of time. You can up regulate the receptor by lowering the amount of drugs or stop using it. I would lover the doze instead stop cold, this would results in super-sensitized receptors. During the up regulation period I would use 5 to 10mg per day only. It works, I was doing it for many years.
So you would advice me at 36 years of age to do 10 mg of test for few weeks, say 8 weeks may be and then do a blast if I wanted to for 8 weeks (which i will) and NOT bother with PCT and going off hormones completely ?

Also can I keep repeating this 8 weeks cruise at 10 mg and a blast indefinitely for unforseen future ?

Also what are your thoughts of adding other anabolics like tren, deca, npp,mast in the blast phase. I know you have not taken Tren by yourselves.

Btw I am totally sold on your sub q method. I did not believe it before I must admit but I tried in sep 2016 for a cruise for 4 months and I was totally sold. Now I do even my blasts sub q!!! I am talking 400-500-600 mg of test all sub q. I just dont feel like doing it IM anymore.

My current method is ..

Test cruise or blast all goes in sub Q

All anabolics goes IM.


I will post my blood work here.

Many thanks

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devenidas

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For what it's worth, Dev, if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely NOT listen to your pro friend, and instead just keep on following that TRT/cruise path I've chosen... as you rightly outlined, you're not 20 anymore, and I didn't hear you say you wanted kids at this point in your life...

Lowering dosages to 150-200mg Test/week for months will anyways be low enough to make AAS effective again when you re-introduce them in some heavier course later.

Coming off cold turkey at 36 after years of playing with hormones at all kind of doses would just be asking for trouble... best way to feel EXTREMELY shitty without even being sure to ever recover... just to go back on at some point... NO! ;)
Many thanks Phidias for your input as always.

So you obviously do this method to blast/cruise. I mean we got to. How the hell we can hold onto supraphysiological amount of muscle we carry on those shitty recovered natty levels. We are bound to loose a good amount of tissue which we burst our balls to build.

Funniest thing was he said i will have you do a PCT for 4 weeks then give 1 week off totally nothing and then pin long esters. He dont like/do short Easters.

and i thought in my head hang on a min....


so you are saying finish PCT and then give one week off and pin lets say test cyp which will peak in my system in 10-14 days to shut me down AGAIN after only like what a total of 3 week tops ! lol

I mean i would have snythetic test all singing and dancing in my body 14 days post first pin so I am shut down again.

3 fucking weeks!!!

HPTA might not have even recovered fully in 3 weeks post finishing PCT run, may be just about if lucky and then we shut it down again lol How pointless is that shit seriously.

Well regd kids I am not fussed. My wife talks about it. She would like to have 1 baby in new next years, that's what she says but she is a busy bee career women and not mad about kids tbh lol she just does not admit it. She does express a strong desire to have a baby later on. She will be 33 this coming Dec.

I am keeping positive that if Dave P could make second baby now at 50 something years of age after abusing shit for years to be a 300 pounds bber I might succeed too in that endeavour if we do decide to eventually have a baby.

There are few baby making drug protocols around as you would know, use of HCG and clomoid and if this does not work then triptorelin & HMG which apparently works 95 percent of the times. I can try those if and when needed to.

I think its more about preserving or increasing sperm count.



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UKBodybuilder

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a.k.a. The Journal of Broscience Quarterly.
I guess a 5 year university degree in health sciences with specialized courses in advanced human physiology, biochemistry, metabolic systems and anatomy is now called BroScience.
Hey brother if your not gonna contribute something good to the thread then fuck off.
 

nothuman

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 was having a conversation with someone who is doing quite well in bbing and has made a mark in British bodybuilding scene/IFBB and this guy was adamant that I should go off at 36 years of age and do a traditional PCT. He said that considering I have been on for 2 years straight (blasting and crusing) I should do this. I was off everything before that for a good looong period of time, zero no super supps, nothing at all.


My argument to him was even if i go off and do a PCT what am i going to achieve after that ?


Am I going to be able to carry the amount of lean tissue I have on those not so fantastic "recovered" natty levels whatever that might be ? 


No 


Is my sex drive going to be great at 36 heading to 40 ?


No 


Am I going to be feeling physically/mentally / hormonally great


no


 


I stressed the argument with him that even if I recover my whatever natural production which blood work will show in due course, is it going to be good enough for me to feel and look the way I do. I am confident the answer to that is a big fat no!


So what's the point of putting PCT drugs in my body, feeling crappy on clomid and then after PCT give it 2-3-4 months again feeling low ONLY to put the pin in after that time and he was still like no mate I still recommend to anyone going off and doing a PCT and recover yourselves and stay off for little while and then jump back on!   


I just could not get his logic. I think he was talking from the traditional point of view, back in the day stuff . If I was a 20 something year old kid ya cool i would need to go off and do PCT and recover HPTA function and go again for cycle and so on. That would be sensible.

He did not buy anything I said to him.


I have been doing this shit since i was 17 year old kid and i will be 3fucking6 next month. 


Yes I use to do PCT in my younger days. Yes i use to do Time on = Time off. 


Old school cycling but game changed at 34 years old and it wont be getting better naturally at 36 years of age I know that for a fact!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Simply another case of him being a guy that doesn't always know what he is talking about, despite his physique. Being bigger doesn't always mean more knowledge.
 

dutch

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Guess this all very personal. I came off at 36 after being ON the double the time your are ON.

I feel fine. Yes iam less big and strong and a bit more soft around the waist then i like but i feel good. And training is also good. Hormonal i am in "range" and able to make babies.

If you going to stay on i think its a must you are on pharma grade test. (who knows what is in these raw chinese powders?) Health wise i mean.

I also believe its healthier to be OFF if you can get your levels back in range.

Your wife WILL want to have a baby, thats just nature. Be prepared...

It is possible you will be fine after a while off just as it is you will be fine on TRT.

But to be honest i am still tempted to go ON, hence me still lurking on this site.

All the best to you whatever you decide man.
 

asteelz

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Look at steroids in the same way as all other drugs that target receptors.. eventually the drug doesn't work as well due to prolonged exposure and requires an increased dose. When you stop or lower your doses the body's sensitivity to the drug increases, and when you start again the dose required is lower.
 

devenidas

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Look at steroids in the same way as all other drugs that target receptors.. eventually the drug doesn't work as well due to prolonged exposure and requires an increased dose. When you stop or lower your doses the body's sensitivity to the drug increases, and when you start again the dose required is lower.
The word

spot on...

happens with every fucking drug.

but i am liking Emeric's thoughts on this you can lower the dose or you can go off to become more sensitive to gear so considering we obviously don't want to feel like shit and loose muscle we can just go low dose and then blast again.

I am not convinced yet on just 10 mg though lol I might have to try it and see. I could be totally in the wrong.

Has anyone tried 10 mg of test sub q a day ?

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