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Opinions on Overtraining?

TheOtherOne55

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This sounds fairly simple but — you'll KNOW if you're overtraining.

If you're body can't hack it, itll tell you. Overtraining isn't some hidden aspect of lifting that you have to guess about.
Its fatigue and exhaustion and the inability to recover enough to train again.
So if you're thinking if 15 sets is overtraining but maybe 8 isn't? Youre overthinking, not overtraining.

We've seen millllions of lifters do a million different routines and make progress. We've seen guys handle 2 a day sessions and make progress and we've seen guys do 2 work sets and make progress. If has far more to do with how YOU are taking care of yourself then it is HOW MUCH you are doing.

The BBing communities understanding of overtraining is kinda crazy. Go talk to some PLers and have them tell you about pushing themselves too hard...
My muscles will figure out how to handle the increase in volume, but your central nervous system is entirely different.
 

qbkilla

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I don't like high volume period. Not because it necessarily will overtrain me, but....if I'm doing 20 sets for biceps and I tell you I put the same intensity in each as if I was doing 6 sets ..I'm a liar. You can only focus and generate so much intensity. Think of an all out sprit vs marathon. You can run hard for what 20 seconds, but not 3 minutes or 10 minutes. No one wants to be in the gym 3 hours so they cut the rest intervals short...so they aren't going to be as strong the next set so even if you bust ass intensity is still lower.

If I'm doing 4 sets with 3 minutes rest..

160 x15, 12, 10, 8 maybe

If 30 seconds...160x 15,8,5,3

Basing those guesses on my rest pause for one exercise as 15 breats is about 30 seconds I usually hit 15,8,5 on the oh press machine.
 

FK86

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My muscles will figure out how to handle the increase in volume, but your central nervous system is entirely different.
I agree with this. I can train back the day after biceps and have no issues beating the logbook. My muscles tend to recover quite fast and DOMS isn't that big of an issue with me. To the point where I actually miss it. However, that "beat up" feeling is something I need to address. I've been stubbornly adherent to lifting 4 days a week (M/T/Th/F) for years and I think I really need to modify it to M/W/F and see how I do. Digging through some old threads here there's been instances of guys doing that and noticing even better logbook progression and sense of well-being. I've tried in the past to do it and have always been too eager to get back to 4 days. I think I need to recognize that mentally that's exactly where I want to be. If my enthusiasm is through the roof to smash a good lifting session that's a good sign that things are in the right place. Sometimes I'm kind of forcing myself to get through a session. Of course this will be individual and some people can do a straight 6 days with no issues.
 

qbkilla

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I agree with this. I can train back the day after biceps and have no issues beating the logbook. My muscles tend to recover quite fast and DOMS isn't that big of an issue with me. To the point where I actually miss it. However, that "beat up" feeling is something I need to address. I've been stubbornly adherent to lifting 4 days a week (M/T/Th/F) for years and I think I really need to modify it to M/W/F and see how I do. Digging through some old threads here there's been instances of guys doing that and noticing even better logbook progression and sense of well-being. I've tried in the past to do it and have always been too eager to get back to 4 days. I think I need to recognize that mentally that's exactly where I want to be. If my enthusiasm is through the roof to smash a good lifting session that's a good sign that things are in the right place. Sometimes I'm kind of forcing myself to get through a session. Of course this will be individual and some people can do a straight 6 days with no issues.
I prefer the opposite. Say my volume is 50 total sets per week for all parts. Id much rather spread it out over 5 days than pack it into 3. Spread it out more, shorter more intense sessions
 

Bio

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I thought a push pull leg split 5x a week was borderline overtraining,

Then I started training for an Ironman.


😂😂 80 sets a week and guys think they are overtraining.

Now..training beyond what is necessary fke
Hypertrophy? Maybe. But training to the point of digging yourself in a hole from dumbbells and squats? Highly unlikely. Just add food or more sleep.

And there’s a limit to how hard you can hit the “build muscle switch” but that doesn’t mean your not capable of running 3-4 800s the next day and swimming 1000 meters the next day, if you rest and eat.

Exactly! Look at David Goggins. He can push and push and push but this is about bodybuilding and hypertrophy...big difference!! Not directed at you juggy, you get it.
 

Cerberus777

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Bodybuilding is not an extremely taxing sport. Even a 22 set leg day….has no fight against how fucked you feel after a 1 mike am swim and a 68 mile bike ride.

Dante used to say, there was a line you had to cross in a workout to throw the anabolic trigger. Once’s your flipped it on, anything else was depleting resources.

I think in BB overtraining…we use that as going beyond this trigger when we don’t have too.

Other sports use overtraining in the context of thyroid crashing, physiological problems, depression, extreme fatigue….it depends on the definition

If just lifting and maybe 30min on a treadmill it's hard to overtrain. I lift DC style and it never really wears me out. It along with mountain biking (race enduro) and BJJ after about 3-4 months I need a back off week or 2. But I'm also pushing 50. The body is quite capable of enduring a lot.
 

Cerberus777

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I prefer the opposite. Say my volume is 50 total sets per week for all parts. Id much rather spread it out over 5 days than pack it into 3. Spread it out more, shorter more intense sessions

If I only lifted, this is what I'd do. When you only have a short list you kill it! There's no gotta save a little because I still have to hit my back.
 

juggy38

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Exactly! Look at David Goggins. He can push and push and push but this is about bodybuilding and hypertrophy...big difference!! Not directed at you juggy, you get it.

Yes exactly….we just need to be careful with our words and our implied definition. We just need to be specific with what we talking about

“Overtraining”…..are we keeping in the realms of meathead/BB? We all know what that is. Sore joints, flat, hunger falls, progression stalls.

“Overtraining” in scientific literature….where the body really starts getting fucked…..Ranger school, ultra endurance athletes is a different animal

But sure, I do for sure agree you can “BB overtrain”’ with a poor split and poor nutrition
 

Othello

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idk if this has been mentioned yet

but a distinction must be made between overtraining the muscle, and overtraining the CNS

i feel that you can get more volume in, and recover faster/better, if your program doesnt include lifts that really tax your CNS like deadlifting, barbell squatting, and OH pressing


will excluding these movements hamper your gains?

the pros/cons of faster recovery and therefore ability to train more frequently vs possible gains lost from ditching the big movements must be decided on a case by case basis
 

qbkilla

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If just lifting and maybe 30min on a treadmill it's hard to overtrain. I lift DC style and it never really wears me out. It along with mountain biking (race enduro) and BJJ after about 3-4 months I need a back off week or 2. But I'm also pushing 50. The body is quite capable of enduring a lot.
Agree with this. I use the DC 5 way split I couldn't see myself ever overtraining. Yet sometimes I'll see people on Reddit "DC training 3 way split was too taxing it's not for everyone!". It's literally one of the lowest volume programs ever.
 

NeveReveN

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I believe that there is WAY more to "over training" than the training.
I think many people are not over training but are under recovering. Not getting enough sleep , not getting enough NUTRIENTS not just calories , keeping their Central Nervous System hammered constantly with stimulants
Most serious guys are probably training with enough intensity that they could be "over training" even when good nutrition , sleep and endocrine function are optimal. The average gym bro probably not over training because there idea of "training to failure" is stopping when it gets uncomfortable which is way short of physical failure but then eat bullshit , take in a million grams of caffeine and get four hours sleep cause they are up playing video games all night.
I can’t remember who said this, a long time ago, but it aligns with what you just said: “There is no overtraining, just under eating and under sleeping.”
 

hawkmoon

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I can’t remember who said this, a long time ago, but it aligns with what you just said: “There is no overtraining, just under eating and under sleeping.”
I think Cutler said similar.

I think however it is a gross oversimplification.
There will come a point when no amount of food, sleep, or drugs will help, and will be a different line for all of us.
Ability to hit the upper limits of training loads and still recover may be one of the strongest genetic factors for bodybuilding greatness.

I'm overtrained when I don't make progress or even backslide, feel aches and pains throughout the day, and have an omnipresent feeling of exhaustion.
 

fisther69

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I think it depends on the person.

I personally don’t feel I can hit overtraining. But I train just to be able to keep going.
 

alfresco

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Volume and intensity are mutually exclusive.
I will, in due time, get around to posting my thoughts and experiences on intensity of effort and volume.

It is my firmly held opinion that most people have zero idea what true failure is.

And it is not forced reps, not negatives as commonly applied, not partials, not any of the overly complicated pseudo scientific routines. Nothing special, just pure absolute desire, belief along with the proper motivation, with motivation being key.

Yes, I am excluding the genetic elite who grow just by looking at a barbell but who would get to where they wanted to be in a hell of a lot less time.

But what the hell do I know? I am just a cynical old man who thinks he know it all but in actuality knows what he does not know.
 

alfresco

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I trained like that but with double the amount of sets, when i started at a real gym, for almost 2 years and made good gains 35+ pounds. But then had start incorporating more rest days and less sets as the poundage i was lifting was getting to much to recover from with that high of volume.
👍

The bigger you get the less you ‘can’ train and more rest that is required.
you
It might appear to some to be a contradiction when in fact who actually knows how much they could have gained if they did not spend all their time in the gym.

The theory of contrary opinion. If only it were just a theory 😉
 

buck

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👍

The bigger you get the less you ‘can’ train and more rest that is required.
you
It might appear to some to be a contradiction when in fact who actually knows how much they could have gained if they did not spend all their time in the gym.

The theory of contrary opinion. If only it were just a theory 😉
I have to agree. Recovering from a heavy set of benching 100 pounds for 10 reps till failure when you first start lifting is easier then 400 pounds for 10 reps later on. Personally i figure the body has a certain amount of recovery ability, it can increase over time but not near as much as strength can increase. And recovery has to cover all aspects from physical, emotional mental. Heat cold money problems can stress the system. Recovery gets spread over everything. But that is my opinion.
 

alfresco

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I have to agree. Recovering from a heavy set of benching 100 pounds for 10 reps till failure when you first start lifting is easier then 400 pounds for 10 reps later on. Personally i figure the body has a certain amount of recovery ability, it can increase over time but not near as much as strength can increase. And recovery has to cover all aspects from physical, emotional mental. Heat cold money problems can stress the system. Recovery gets spread over everything. But that is my opinion.
👍 again.

Recovery. If only it were subject to significant improvement (not aerobic) in weight training in the absence of AAS but even then that is limited and reaches a point of diminishing returns and is not in direct correlation to the amount taken.

Further, it actually diminishes the bigger you get if you train as hard as humanly possible thereby actually growing muscle.

And by big and I am not talking calling yourself big or others calling you big by filling your body parts with oil which is a sad and delusional.

Eventually, and it won’t take long to figure this one out, imperially or otherwise if you have the capacity to under the basic cause and effects of weight training.
 

qbkilla

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I will, in due time, get around to posting my thoughts and experiences on intensity of effort and volume.

It is my firmly held opinion that most people have zero idea what true failure is.

And it is not forced reps, not negatives as commonly applied, not partials, not any of the overly complicated pseudo scientific routines. Nothing special, just pure absolute desire, belief along with the proper motivation, with motivation being key.

Yes, I am excluding the genetic elite who grow just by looking at a barbell but who would get to where they wanted to be in a hell of a lot less time.

But what the hell do I know? I am just a cynical old man who thinks he know it all but in actuality knows what he does not know.
Agree with this.

If someone tells me they do 20 sets for triceps and each set is as intense as if they did 3 sets, I don't believe them, no matter how they look otr how hard they claim to train

Just like I dont believe someone that tells me they can sprint for a mile. You may be sprinting out the gate, you may sprint at times during your mile run, but your not sprinting all out for a mile straight.
 

paulallen

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I think it's completely individual.

I'll take a day off or multiple days if my body is telling me to, but I don't schedule days off.

I also think it's easier to recover from certain body parts.

Legs and back days... those are killer.

Chest can get a little rough.

But delts and arms... much easier to recover I think.
 

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