VOLUME TRAINING vs. H.I.T....NO WAY!!!

[bigheinz]

Hi my friends.
I was training "Super Slow" since i learn it in October....
In 4 month i did 16 productives workouts in 5 hours 30 min (20 minutes workouts), my legs grows 2 inches, my arms 1 inches, my back gets more details, my upper chest is better, i get 20 pounds of pure muscle fiber becouse i have the same body fat 5.8% with 256 pounds....

If you compare one guy running a volume training, in 4 months he performs about 80 workouts in 160 hours....Dont you think this is a lot of work even if he gets maybe the same results (i am sure not)
My best friend is running a volume training,very hard workouts, is running a good cycle too, good nutrition plan, but he looks at the same shape with no improvements in 6 months, he weights 240 pounds and is moving the same weights???????? OVERTRAIN IS THE ANSWEAR WITH NO EXACT AMOUNT OF FIBER STIMULATION.

Science is the way, say no to empirics, say yes to any version of HIT......
HIT is the best, HIT is the fastest way to get huge....

and remember........
........There is no sapace for the littles!!!!!!!!!!
Bigheinz

 

[Mr_Magoo]

hit is not based on science for the last time, it is based on theoretical and philosophical discussion by jones and mentzer, if u want a scientific view read poliquins and haycocks stuff

 

[Fathead]

Heinz

I really hate to seem like an ass here but HIT is really not the only way to train. I appreciate your fondness of HIT and again I use it or " my " version of it and it works but only as much as you put into it just as volume, descending, period training anything else. Your friend who has not changed may not be eating enough protein, carbs, taking the right combo or may just be plain lazy.
Any type of strenuous workout that stresses the muscle to breakdown will cause the muscle to go into the rebuild muscle phase and produce growth, remember your biology muscles break down then repair themselves that's why you grow new and hopefully bigger muscle. I have to say for you to believe HIT is the only way to do this is a little naive on your part and you might need to be a little more open to different ways of training which in turn might help some of your weak points. Like I saw your pics and you look great but from the front your quads really need to come up and legs being the large muscle that they are in my honest opinion need more than 2 or 3 sets.

I personally have 33 inch quads at 265lbs and at 200 lbs I can keep them at 30 to 31 inches and I do that by a semi volume type method. I know that dpsquat does a HIT method on his quads and has a great set of wheels himself so both our methods seems to work.

Last is I am sorry but I finally have to be mean here but there is no way your 5.8% bf in your pics if I really had to guess I'd say 8% and the best I say is 7%. This doesn’t say I don't think you can't get that low but look at my pics and look at yours. I was 5.5% bf at 194lbs and it's kind of insulting to have you say we were just as cut as one another.

I think your a good BB but I also think you should be a little less hard in your way of thinking and open up to alternative ways of training.

 

[Crowler]

Fat Head I agree different workouts work for different people.

I see you use your own stats to prove your point that a higher volume training works better than HIT for your legs. You also use your stats to show Heinz is not doing the best he can for his legs.

However I have to ask you why the differance between the stats you post here and the ones you posted just 3 or 4 months ago.


You now say that your legs can be 30 to 30.5 at 200 lbs but before you said that inorder to get that size you have to be 240lbs. That is a big differance.

You also said that when you are 194 your legs are 29" not the 30 to 30.5 you are now saying they can be at 200lbs.

Like you said not trying to be a dick but if you use stats to prove a point, it is important to be accurate with them. Perhaps you have done a show in the past 3 months and your have gotten down to 200lbs and kept your legs at 30" or more. Then I understand the differances in the stats.

 

[xcelbeyond]

Re: Heinz

I personally have 33 inch quads at 265lbs and at 200 lbs I can I was 5.5% bf at 194lbs and it's kind of insulting to have you say we were just as cut as one another.

Fathead - sounds like you have someone who's very "consistent" with "calipers" check your BF. This can be an excellent method to "check" your progress, but very inaccurate as far as "actual" BF levels I'd guess you to be 3% if not LESS in your pics!!!

I know bigheinz uses the "Parillo Method" by capilers for his BF measurements. That just validates my comment about it's accuracy for measuring actual BF - someone good with calipers can be consistent. His readings show him "leaner" than actual, yours show you FATTER than actual!!!

Sorry BH, I don't want this to turn into a flaming thread, but you're probably in the 7% BF range in those pics IMHO.

xcel

 

[Fathead]

crowler

Crowler
Please don't take one post I made and use it as a bench mark for everything I say about me saying what my stats are. I will consitently state that until I hit 240lbs my legs do not get over 31 " after that they just seem to sprout up as my weight goes up mostly water and fat. I probably mentioned that as a light weight 155lbs my legs were 29" if some where there was a mispoke , misquote, blurb or whatever then don't take it out of context. I spend about 20 mins max on these boards a week and don't read or even check my spelling all the time but in the future for your peace of mind I will make sure I stay consistent,

X I never use calipers only water dunking for 3 wks prior to a show about 3 times a week as a good friend of owns equipment to do so. I want to be " consitent" for crowler here but the lowest I have ever been 4% give or take a "." and this was as a light weight and middle weight. My wife who is receiving her doctorate in nutrition and has a masters in phisiology ( still staying "consistent")also has several formulas that really determine bf% to a very accuarte degree.
I think calipers are crap and HIT is again not the end all be all and every time a post is made about if I disagree then I am going to say something.

 

[bigheinz]

MY POINT WAS: I HAVE 16 WORKOUTS IN 4 MOTHS AND OTHERS HAVE 80 WORKOUTS.....

THEY ARE LOOSING TIME!!!!!!!!!...TIME IS GOLD.

Hey FATH, how are you, i work with Parrillo Calipers and you work with Water dunking, a aggree if i do other method to take my measurements is going to be a different result. Most of people do caliper measurements with diferrents methods and results will be diferent too. I have no problem with my body fat, thank you. I had 3.2% last year with parrillo performance calipers and this year i want to be in 2.3 % with parrillo performance method, is an easy method, is very popular and i will like to try your method but in my country i think we dont have it, i am going to try....

I was 2 times light heavyweight venezuelan national champion with volume training and i belive in volume training, but since i start Heavy Duty my body and life change, and i turn to heavys very quick, since i change to others hit systems like rob spector´s, my body change to a real heavy weight with more symetry and density, 4 moths a go i start with Super Slow and my have a very impresive changes for this time.

Xcel: I now Mike Mentzer´s HIT was no scientifiq method but is a very good method to train to a begginer or intermediate to develope a good muscular body but more important than this is Heavy Duty developes your mind to train hard without fear, but Rob Spector, Ken Leistner, Ken Hutchkins are cientifics that developes diferents HIt variations.
MR MAGOO: I never had acces to Brians Haycoks or Polinqins work maybe you can tell me were i can get it in the net.

tHANKS TO ALL OF YOU THIS IS THE BEST FORUM . THE OTHERS FORUMS ARE FULL OF BEGGINERS AND SH....T

and remember.......
no mather the way you do it......
...There is no space for the littles!!!!!!!!!
Bigheinz

 

[xcelbeyond]

bigheinz - I'm glad that you're taking all of this "constructive criticism" in stride We are glad that you are here and contributing!

xcel

 

[Mr_Magoo]

haycocks stuff is on hst.com, hypertrophy-specific.com, did an interview in isue 216 or 217 at t-mag.com, poliquin is in a lot of places but his web site is a good place to start, it is charlespoliquin.net

 

[bigheinz]

THANK YOU XCEL AND MM AND THANKS TO ALL OF FRIENDS OF THIS FORUM, THANKS FOR YOUR HELP AND CRITICS, I AM GLAD TO HELP YOU TOO AND HAVE YOUR SUPPORT TO MY NEXT COMPETITION....
BIGHEINZ

 

[Mr_Magoo]

big heinz, my biggest problem with some versions of hit are that it does seem that it works or seems to work because u end up forcing urself to have terrible recovery ability bc u never challenge it to do more

 

[Crowler]

big heinz, my biggest problem with some versions of hit are that it does seem that it works or seems to work because u end up forcing urself to have terrible recovery ability bc u never challenge it to do more

I don't understand this fully. Can you explain?

 

[Mr_Magoo]

basically the muscle grows for only a day or two then deconditions itself over the next 7 or so days (mentzers more extreme programs) and the load is able to seem tough again bc u didnot hit the bodypart soon enough again, the muscle as a result becomes to atrophy. and i beleive the faithful followers of his who have trained his way for a while simply cannot go to any higher volume routines bc they have conditioned themselves to only be able to tolerate such a finite amount of volume

 

[Crowler]

I am not completely familiar with HIT. I know more about a Dogg Crapp type routine.

I THOUGHT with HIT you were expected to increase your reps or weight every workout. If the muscle as a result starts to atrophy, how could you do this?

 

[homonunculus]

BF estimation

A word on body fat estimation:

Remember that calipers are used to *predict* the results of the body density determination from hydrostatic (underwater) weighing, which is used to estimate % body fat. The equation for the estimation is based on assumed values for the density of fat (varies little, but is does vary), and the fat-free mass, which can vary stubstantially, and can be very different from the average in very muscular persons. (The estimation equation to determine body fat % from body density - from dunking - will OVERESTIMATE Body fat %.)

The error (standard deviation) of calipers, at best, using the Jackson and Pollock 7-site equations, works out to about 3% body fat. This means that even if your skinfold and caliper technique were exactly like it was in the original experiments, you would still "deviate" by 3%. To say I am 95% certain (scientific standard) about the result of your body fat estimation using calipers, I would have to give a range of ±6%, e.g., "I'm 95% certain you are between 4% and 16%..." The other problem is that some of the equations were derived from population samples that didn't have any bodybuilder or extremely muscular athletes. Even a better chance for error. Accuracy is not all that great w/ calipers. There use is that, in the hands of an experienced tester, they are reliable and precise and give a good indication of changes in body fat.

I've never seen a bodybuilding judge use caliper measurements to determine placings.


I have no idea what equation Parillo uses, but you have to realize that <3% bodyfat means that you, if alive, are shredded to the gills - you'd make Andreas Munzer look like a fat ass.

Anybody know / have the reference for the equation that Parillo uses?... Did he make his own?...

-Randy

 

[Mr_Magoo]

I am not completely familiar with HIT. I know more about a Dogg Crapp type routine.

I THOUGHT with HIT you were expected to increase your reps or weight every workout. If the muscle as a result starts to atrophy, how could you do this?

i use a dc way as well and ur right in what u say, i was referring more to althoguh poorly that a dc hit routine is more effective bc it has a repeated loading that is more often on the muscle, i was trying to say that mentzer more ridicoulous routines are just that, and that just bc someone doesnt make progress does not mean he has to go from 9 days rest between bodypart hits to once every 14 days,

i was also trying to point out that i believe a problem with hit inthose that use it is they have a hard time ever going to another routine after theyve done hit for a while

 

[bigheinz]

Athrophy starts after 40 days without train a muscle. When you train Heavy Duty II you rest muscle groups about 20 days becouse you train every 7 to 10 days, same thing when you are training Rob Spector´s HIT. This 10 days off you are gaining muscle mass and strenght with nutrition and suplementation.
Crowler hit avocates to train hard every workout but train hard is´nt make more reps, it is move more and more weight, never add sets or reps becouse you get easy overtained, becouse you destroy you recover hability. The exact amount of rest, frequence, sets and reps are predetermined on each hit variation.

RANDY: good point....
Parrillo performance takes 9 measurements and is only for body builders to check and have the best view to get ripped, of course judges dont have calipers but it helps you a lot, some times you think you are ready but you dont, you can look ready to some people eyes or to your eyes, but when you take your bf values you undestand that you need to droop a little bf to look rely impressive.

 

[mike ross]

is DC HIT method posted on this board? if not where is it at so i can give it a look. i read big a's HIT for beginners and that seemed pretty reasonable. anyone else agree on big a's program?

 

[Mr_Magoo]

Athrophy starts after 40 days without train a muscle. When you train Heavy Duty II you rest muscle groups about 20 days becouse you train every 7 to 10 days, same thing when you are training Rob Spector´s HIT. This 10 days off you are gaining muscle mass and strenght with nutrition and suplementation.
Crowler hit avocates to train hard every workout but train hard is´nt make more reps, it is move more and more weight, never add sets or reps becouse you get easy overtained, becouse you destroy you recover hability. The exact amount of rest, frequence, sets and reps are predetermined on each hit variation.

.

where ar eu getting this 40 day figure? is it from one of the great studies mentzer talked about and yet ignored the other scientific studies which disproved the only ones he could find to support his views

any of us im sure can tell u if we take 40 days off from hitting a bodypart we will have lost size and innervation into how to do the exercise

if the rest in his programs are pre-determined, then how do u account for the individual who recovers faster then the one who does not

 

[LATS]

the one thing that hit does lack is science. most hit is based on recovery and the idea that hit promotes recovery and thus, muscle growth. the problem is that hit is almost a religion. the followers can not bring themselves to try anything else and hold true to their beliefs so much that they become stagnant. i will say that i have gone a whole month between leg workouts and not lost any strength...but, i did not gain any either... one can not overlook anecdotal evidence either. (although i hate to rely much on it) mosy anecdotal evidence says that high volume works. look at any national level stage and you will see 90-95% of the top guys do a basic higher volume workout. that may go against our readings in science and human phys but, it is right in front of our faces. that being said, most well known strength coaches and people such as tudor bumpa, and charles poliquin believe in more frequent workouts and higher volume. they base their finding purely on what they observe through human phys writings and again, their clients. it stands to reason that only a few things are proven to aid muscle growth..these are facts based on everything we know about the human body:
1) we must incur cellular damage and or/ muscular disruption to promote a anabolic enviroment. 2) we must make this happen as often as possible to ensure a anabolic enviroment stays constant ie more growth. 3) we must make sure we supply the body what it needs for theses processes to happen ie protein, carbs ect 4) we must reduce volume or intensity slightly to make sure the muscle groups can be trained fairly often. if a muscle stays sore for 5 days..back off a little. 5)muscle soreness is not an indictor of growth or is it a signal to layoff that particular muscle group. a muscle can be trained when it is slightly sore with no regression in growth. 6) training to failure is not "needed" to stimulate growth. many strength athletes that are not bodybuilders do not train to muscular failure. failure is a way to "gauge" progress but, that can also backfire. train to failure after a bad nights sleep or a illness and you will see that failure is not always a indictor that the muscle has been fatigued. more than likely you are fighting many other factors that led to muscle failure..not the muscle itself. ie cns fatigue, immune stress, leading to a weakened state.
that being said, the biggest legs you will find is usually on speed skaters. all one has to do is look at their training protocal. squats and lunges ect. performed two to three times a week along with the speed training....that my friends is pretty frequent stimulation. they do not seem any worse for wear...