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Why are more people not doing extremely high protein diets?

luki7788

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To the guys pushing high protein, do you do anything special for digestion? I tried 450g protein and 6-800 carbs and it wasn’t sustainable, had to Take a day off of eating 1-2x a week. I felt like it was mostly from the protein, carb sources were all easy digesting foods
In fact, I have always eaten a very high protein, I think that for about 15 years I do not go below 400g a day and sometimes it was and much more at 550g

at 400g I do not have any digestive problems, above 450g it starts to get a little worse, i.e. I have no problems with eating it but I have bloating and gas
 

Swifto

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Great thread.

Food has got to be the hardest part of all this, for me anyway. I love training, sleeping, recovery has to be the easy part, getting in the high food consistently can be challenging.

More activity (small walks) I guess to increase hunger.
 

MR. BMJ

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My sweet spot has always been around 1.4-1.7 when dieting down . I like between 1.1-1.4'ish when not dieting. If I start going closer to 2.0g, my stomach starts to distend a lot more, and I get digestive issues. I love having shakes, they do me very well, but I have always mixed in just as much solid protein sources/meals as well. For most of my younger days, I was almost always above 400g/d.
 

Cerberus777

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It goes against common talk these days unless you're a big guy. But I found larger less frequent meals easier to digest. 4 x75gr is easier than 6 x50gr meals. The bigger guys gotta hit 6x80gr or more.
 

qbkilla

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I drink liquid egg whites instead. Stomach needs a few days to accept it, but I usually have one container of whey isolate around for emergencies but usually it's always liquid egg whites. Noticed huge changes after doing this for 30 days then 90 days in my kidneys and other blood work. I use to drink 3-4 shakes a day so that was a complete 180. Nowadays, I have 4 real meals, then 50g of protein from egg whites after I lift. On off days I have 3 real meals, 2 servings of egg whites and use to drink 15g of EAA/BCAA mix throughout the day.
I'm not surprised. Who knows what actual ingredients are put into powders and they are marketed as healthy but still processed.
 

qbkilla

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Does supplementing with thyroid help assimilate and digest higher protein amounts?

A. A person who has normal thyroid function but takes t3

B. Someone slightly hypothyroid so is on thryroid medication to have normal function.

I would assume it would help person b, perhaps not a?
 

Sixfoottwo

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Does supplementing with thyroid help assimilate and digest higher protein amounts?

A. A person who has normal thyroid function but takes t3

B. Someone slightly hypothyroid so is on thryroid medication to have normal function.

I would assume it would help person b, perhaps not a?
Well I remember a post from Dante about aiding in digestion and among other things he mentioned 12.5 mcg of T3.
 

luki7788

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Does supplementing with thyroid help assimilate and digest higher protein amounts?

A. A person who has normal thyroid function but takes t3

B. Someone slightly hypothyroid so is on thryroid medication to have normal function.

I would assume it would help person b, perhaps not a?
never become overactive thyroid gland - it will never do more harm than good

Upper normal range - yes, but never hyperthyroidism
 

Cerberus777

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Does supplementing with thyroid help assimilate and digest higher protein amounts?

A. A person who has normal thyroid function but takes t3

B. Someone slightly hypothyroid so is on thryroid medication to have normal function.

I would assume it would help person b, perhaps not a?
I'm hypo, but keep myself at high normal. It helps some.
 

hawkmoon

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Great thread.

Food has got to be the hardest part of all this, for me anyway. I love training, sleeping, recovery has to be the easy part, getting in the high food consistently can be challenging.

More activity (small walks) I guess to increase hunger.
I've told people this so many times and it never sticks. It's not "sexy" and lacks the mysticism many are looking for.

Eating a lot of good food is frickin hard...really hard. I mean really damn hard.

Even at my age I'm sure I could add another 10-20lbs of muscle with the same training and gear if I could eat more.

There is no way in hell I could eat (and process) much more than I do however.
 

w8tlifterty

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I've told people this so many times and it never sticks. It's not "sexy" and lacks the mysticism many are looking for.

Eating a lot of good food is frickin hard...really hard. I mean really damn hard.

Even at my age I'm sure I could add another 10-20lbs of muscle with the same training and gear if I could eat more.

There is no way in hell I could eat (and process) much more than I do however.
I could always manage it when I was younger… pushing the calories w clean food. It’s the hardest part of all this but after 20+ years of feeding well beyond what I was meant too… my stomach just won’t take it anymore.
 

qbkilla

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never become overactive thyroid gland - it will never do more harm than good

Upper normal range - yes, but never hyperthyroidism
Do top guys use t3 to stay in that upper range? Are we able to dose t3 to be in that portion of the range precisely but not to over? Only reason I am curious about thryroid usage is I did have a test come back recently showing I am slight below range for t4. Typically in range. Thinking about following up with doctor to see if this test was an outlier or if I am hypo and some med (Doctor prescribed) may provide huge benefit.
 

luki7788

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Do top guys use t3 to stay in that upper range? Are we able to dose t3 to be in that portion of the range precisely but not to over? Only reason I am curious about thryroid usage is I did have a test come back recently showing I am slight below range for t4. Typically in range. Thinking about following up with doctor to see if this test was an outlier or if I am hypo and some med (Doctor prescribed) may provide huge benefit.
what's the problem to dose t3 exactly? it is enough to do blood tests
 

qbkilla

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what's the problem to dose t3 exactly? it is enough to do blood tests
I just wasn't sure if guys self supplementing t3 were able to keep their range "dialed" in where they want it without going out of range. I guess it comes down to gradually increasing dosage and continuing testing.
 

massnup

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I watched all Ronnie's DVDs and on none he ate 250g of protein a day and as for Cost of Redemption, if I'm not mistaken, he makes this famous shake of 100g of protein there, he also ate a lot more beef than usual, but the meat was at the level of 0.5lbs for a meal, and I'm more than sure of that
People missed the part in the video where he says that he didnt video the 2 protein shakes so he says he included them in the later video.
 

Cerberus777

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Actually i have seen some coaches that advise to eat 1g/kg of proteins from complete sources + 30g EAA daily to get our protein requirement covered 100%.
I tried this year's ago, I had some digestive issues and ate 120-150gr protein and 60-80gr of EAA. It can work if you have digestive or kidney issues but the timing of EAA to meals is a chore. With the prices of food going up I've thought about doing it again with 200gr of protein.
 

Type-IIx

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Put simply, very high protein diets (>3.3 g/kg or 1.5 g/lb) are not conducive to everyone's objectives. These diets provide satiety and increase fullness, which can be detrimental to increasing body size. This is because increasing the % of macronutrients one consumes as protein necessarily means reducing the % of carbohydrates (and fats, which should be maintained at an absolutely basal (or >) 20 - 40 g/day to support endocrine function; though, indeed, exogenous androgen serves this function). Very high protein diets are also not conducive to bodybuilding training as typified by moderately high contraction grouping (8 - 15 reps +/-) coupled with short rest intervals (<= 1.5 min) to enhance metabolic factors (including metabolite accumulation), because these sorts of resistance training efforts are glycolytic (rely on glycolysis; or the catabolism of glucose, to perform work).

Skip these next paragraphs unless you are interested in the metabolic processes involved (I saw questions early on in this thread):

Very high protein diets do tend to, on a per-calorie basis, deposit relatively (to the other macronutrients) less fat as adipose tissue due to factors like a high TEF (thermic effect of feeding; increased expenditure to digest polypeptide macromolecules) & some inefficiencies of metabolism (but this is arguably a minor effect, depending on perspective). Excess energy from lipids, carbohydrate, and protein is always stored as body fat (this is elementary). What's less elementary, is understanding the pathways that confer I. preferential use of the energy contained within the chemical bonds from particular macronutrients to perform work (i.e., energy is more readily consumed), & II. the relative efficiency of storage vs. utilization of macronutrients. Depending on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]) that directs the coordination of anabolic (energy consuming; building of tissues) versus catabolic (energy producing; breakdown of tissues) processes.

With respect to I., whereas carbohydrate is efficiently broken down to glucose as a substrate to perform glycolytic efforts as muscular work (rapid energy); protein must be catabolized (proteolysis), its gluconeogenic amino acids (not all AAs are gluconeogenic, some are ketogenic that can never become glucose) are used by the liver in gluconeogenesis to produce glucose that can be used for glycolytic efforts (e.g., bodybuilding-style training).

Dietary fat is particularly hampering (non-conducive) to muscular work in bodybuilding-style resistance training (medium-chain triglycerides excepting): after eating, hydrophobic/lipophilic fats must be digested in the stomach by bile acids released by the gallbladder, are packaged as chylomicrons that enter the lymphatic system in a roundabout (non-portal circulatory) route to the liver. These chylomicrons do not peak until ~3 hr after eating. Eventually, these packages are opened and their fatty acids liberated by LSL (lipoprotein lipase) in muscle or liver. Fatty acids can never be made into glucose but are a high source of energy. Fatty acids can however be oxidized (β-oxidation) & enter the Kreb's cycle as acetyl CoA (in the presence of glucose) to support long duration, low intensity exercise (e.g., low intensity steady state, zone 2, cardio, etc.) If glucose is low (< 50 g carbohydrate intake daily), ketones are formed & can be used as energy substrates to perform work and by the brain (rather than glucose; the preferred brain fuel).

This illustrates how carbohydrate is particularly conducive to a bodybuilder as an energy substrate (consuming glucose & reducing energy surplus) to perform intensive muscular work, particularly of a bodybuilding-style nature (very high intensity, short duration exercise with long intervals, such as 1RM efforts or power cleans rely more on the phosphocreatine system; here, creatine monohydrate can be used to replete energy stores > any macronutrient).

With respect to II., depending, yet again, on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]), fatty acids from dietary fat/lipid can be stored in fat cells or taken up into the bloodstream as circulating free fatty acids (that can contribute to insulin resistance if not taken up by the liver or muscles for subsequent use).

Excess carbohydrate is stored as liver and muscle glycogen by the process of glycogenesis. Muscle glycogen stores cannot contribute to blood glucose stores (because muscle lacks glucose-6-phosphatase), so carbohydrate restriction and voluminous total-body resistance training efforts ("depletion training") is an effective means to increase CPT (carnitine palmotransferase) activity, enhancing fat loss & protein sparing.

Dietary protein, in particular that which contains the essential amino acids (that the body cannot synthesize itself) is vital for growth and metabolism. It's not wrong to view it as essential for substantial muscle growth. And yet, it can still contribute to adipose tissue (body fat) stores in an energy surplus. Some amino acids have the nitrogen stripped away (deamination), are incorporated into urea and excreted via urine (it is the peptide bonds that contain considerable energy, and this loss through urea reflects some additional inefficiencies for protein); the remaining amino acids enter the Kreb's cycle. Amino acids that enter the Kreb's cycle are termed gluconeogenic (can synthesize glucose). Amino acids that are deaminated and become acetyl CoA are termed ketogenic (cannot synthesize glucose).

An additional consideration against very high protein diets is that these diets do tend to increase direct glomerular filtration rate (GFR), the rate at which filtrate of the flow from the glomerulus to Bowman's capsule accrues (125 mL/min). They are, therefore, stressful to the kidneys, which might result in medical complications in susceptible individuals, dehydration, etc.
 

jeroendebleser

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Put simply, very high protein diets (>3.3 g/kg or 1.5 g/lb) are not conducive to everyone's objectives. These diets provide satiety and increase fullness, which can be detrimental to increasing body size. This is because increasing the % of macronutrients one consumes as protein necessarily means reducing the % of carbohydrates (and fats, which should be maintained at an absolutely basal (or >) 20 - 40 g/day to support endocrine function; though, indeed, exogenous androgen serves this function). Very high protein diets are also not conducive to bodybuilding training as typified by moderately high contraction grouping (8 - 15 reps +/-) coupled with short rest intervals (<= 1.5 min) to enhance metabolic factors (including metabolite accumulation), because these sorts of resistance training efforts are glycolytic (rely on glycolysis; or the catabolism of glucose, to perform work).

Skip these next paragraphs unless you are interested in the metabolic processes involved (I saw questions early on in this thread):

Very high protein diets do tend to, on a per-calorie basis, deposit relatively (to the other macronutrients) less fat as adipose tissue due to factors like a high TEF (thermic effect of feeding; increased expenditure to digest polypeptide macromolecules) & some inefficiencies of metabolism (but this is arguably a minor effect, depending on perspective). Excess energy from lipids, carbohydrate, and protein is always stored as body fat (this is elementary). What's less elementary, is understanding the pathways that confer I. preferential use of the energy contained within the chemical bonds from particular macronutrients to perform work (i.e., energy is more readily consumed), & II. the relative efficiency of storage vs. utilization of macronutrients. Depending on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]) that directs the coordination of anabolic (energy consuming; building of tissues) versus catabolic (energy producing; breakdown of tissues) processes.

With respect to I., whereas carbohydrate is efficiently broken down to glucose as a substrate to perform glycolytic efforts as muscular work (rapid energy); protein must be catabolized (proteolysis), its gluconeogenic amino acids (not all AAs are gluconeogenic, some are ketogenic that can never become glucose) are used by the liver in gluconeogenesis to produce glucose that can be used for glycolytic efforts (e.g., bodybuilding-style training).

Dietary fat is particularly hampering (non-conducive) to muscular work in bodybuilding-style resistance training (medium-chain triglycerides excepting): after eating, hydrophobic/lipophilic fats must be digested in the stomach by bile acids released by the gallbladder, are packaged as chylomicrons that enter the lymphatic system in a roundabout (non-portal circulatory) route to the liver. These chylomicrons do not peak until ~3 hr after eating. Eventually, these packages are opened and their fatty acids liberated by LSL (lipoprotein lipase) in muscle or liver. Fatty acids can never be made into glucose but are a high source of energy. Fatty acids can however be oxidized (β-oxidation) & enter the Kreb's cycle as acetyl CoA (in the presence of glucose) to support long duration, low intensity exercise (e.g., low intensity steady state, zone 2, cardio, etc.) If glucose is low (< 50 g carbohydrate intake daily), ketones are formed & can be used as energy substrates to perform work and by the brain (rather than glucose; the preferred brain fuel).

This illustrates how carbohydrate is particularly conducive to a bodybuilder as an energy substrate (consuming glucose & reducing energy surplus) to perform intensive muscular work, particularly of a bodybuilding-style nature (very high intensity, short duration exercise with long intervals, such as 1RM efforts or power cleans rely more on the phosphocreatine system; here, creatine monohydrate can be used to replete energy stores > any macronutrient).

With respect to II., depending, yet again, on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]), fatty acids from dietary fat/lipid can be stored in fat cells or taken up into the bloodstream as circulating free fatty acids (that can contribute to insulin resistance if not taken up by the liver or muscles for subsequent use).

Excess carbohydrate is stored as liver and muscle glycogen by the process of glycogenesis. Muscle glycogen stores cannot contribute to blood glucose stores (because muscle lacks glucose-6-phosphatase), so carbohydrate restriction and voluminous total-body resistance training efforts ("depletion training") is an effective means to increase CPT (carnitine palmotransferase) activity, enhancing fat loss & protein sparing.

Dietary protein, in particular that which contains the essential amino acids (that the body cannot synthesize itself) is vital for growth and metabolism. It's not wrong to view it as essential for substantial muscle growth. And yet, it can still contribute to adipose tissue (body fat) stores in an energy surplus. Some amino acids have the nitrogen stripped away (deamination), are incorporated into urea and excreted via urine (it is the peptide bonds that contain considerable energy, and this loss through urea reflects some additional inefficiencies for protein); the remaining amino acids enter the Kreb's cycle. Amino acids that enter the Kreb's cycle are termed gluconeogenic (can synthesize glucose). Amino acids that are deaminated and become acetyl CoA are termed ketogenic (cannot synthesize glucose).

An additional consideration against very high protein diets is that these diets do tend to increase direct glomerular filtration rate (GFR), the rate at which filtrate of the flow from the glomerulus to Bowman's capsule accrues (125 mL/min). They are, therefore, stressful to the kidneys, which might result in medical complications in susceptible individuals, dehydration, etc.
Thank you for elaborately saying "this is elementary" that all macros in excess, including protein, are stored as body fat.

I don't know where you got that text from @Swifto but it's flat out wrong.
 

luki7788

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Put simply, very high protein diets (>3.3 g/kg or 1.5 g/lb) are not conducive to everyone's objectives. These diets provide satiety and increase fullness, which can be detrimental to increasing body size. This is because increasing the % of macronutrients one consumes as protein necessarily means reducing the % of carbohydrates (and fats, which should be maintained at an absolutely basal (or >) 20 - 40 g/day to support endocrine function; though, indeed, exogenous androgen serves this function). Very high protein diets are also not conducive to bodybuilding training as typified by moderately high contraction grouping (8 - 15 reps +/-) coupled with short rest intervals (<= 1.5 min) to enhance metabolic factors (including metabolite accumulation), because these sorts of resistance training efforts are glycolytic (rely on glycolysis; or the catabolism of glucose, to perform work).

Skip these next paragraphs unless you are interested in the metabolic processes involved (I saw questions early on in this thread):

Very high protein diets do tend to, on a per-calorie basis, deposit relatively (to the other macronutrients) less fat as adipose tissue due to factors like a high TEF (thermic effect of feeding; increased expenditure to digest polypeptide macromolecules) & some inefficiencies of metabolism (but this is arguably a minor effect, depending on perspective). Excess energy from lipids, carbohydrate, and protein is always stored as body fat (this is elementary). What's less elementary, is understanding the pathways that confer I. preferential use of the energy contained within the chemical bonds from particular macronutrients to perform work (i.e., energy is more readily consumed), & II. the relative efficiency of storage vs. utilization of macronutrients. Depending on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]) that directs the coordination of anabolic (energy consuming; building of tissues) versus catabolic (energy producing; breakdown of tissues) processes.

With respect to I., whereas carbohydrate is efficiently broken down to glucose as a substrate to perform glycolytic efforts as muscular work (rapid energy); protein must be catabolized (proteolysis), its gluconeogenic amino acids (not all AAs are gluconeogenic, some are ketogenic that can never become glucose) are used by the liver in gluconeogenesis to produce glucose that can be used for glycolytic efforts (e.g., bodybuilding-style training).

Dietary fat is particularly hampering (non-conducive) to muscular work in bodybuilding-style resistance training (medium-chain triglycerides excepting): after eating, hydrophobic/lipophilic fats must be digested in the stomach by bile acids released by the gallbladder, are packaged as chylomicrons that enter the lymphatic system in a roundabout (non-portal circulatory) route to the liver. These chylomicrons do not peak until ~3 hr after eating. Eventually, these packages are opened and their fatty acids liberated by LSL (lipoprotein lipase) in muscle or liver. Fatty acids can never be made into glucose but are a high source of energy. Fatty acids can however be oxidized (β-oxidation) & enter the Kreb's cycle as acetyl CoA (in the presence of glucose) to support long duration, low intensity exercise (e.g., low intensity steady state, zone 2, cardio, etc.) If glucose is low (< 50 g carbohydrate intake daily), ketones are formed & can be used as energy substrates to perform work and by the brain (rather than glucose; the preferred brain fuel).

This illustrates how carbohydrate is particularly conducive to a bodybuilder as an energy substrate (consuming glucose & reducing energy surplus) to perform intensive muscular work, particularly of a bodybuilding-style nature (very high intensity, short duration exercise with long intervals, such as 1RM efforts or power cleans rely more on the phosphocreatine system; here, creatine monohydrate can be used to replete energy stores > any macronutrient).

With respect to II., depending, yet again, on the energy state of the cell (positive energy balance versus negative; but under hormonal regulation [see, drugz]), fatty acids from dietary fat/lipid can be stored in fat cells or taken up into the bloodstream as circulating free fatty acids (that can contribute to insulin resistance if not taken up by the liver or muscles for subsequent use).

Excess carbohydrate is stored as liver and muscle glycogen by the process of glycogenesis. Muscle glycogen stores cannot contribute to blood glucose stores (because muscle lacks glucose-6-phosphatase), so carbohydrate restriction and voluminous total-body resistance training efforts ("depletion training") is an effective means to increase CPT (carnitine palmotransferase) activity, enhancing fat loss & protein sparing.

Dietary protein, in particular that which contains the essential amino acids (that the body cannot synthesize itself) is vital for growth and metabolism. It's not wrong to view it as essential for substantial muscle growth. And yet, it can still contribute to adipose tissue (body fat) stores in an energy surplus. Some amino acids have the nitrogen stripped away (deamination), are incorporated into urea and excreted via urine (it is the peptide bonds that contain considerable energy, and this loss through urea reflects some additional inefficiencies for protein); the remaining amino acids enter the Kreb's cycle. Amino acids that enter the Kreb's cycle are termed gluconeogenic (can synthesize glucose). Amino acids that are deaminated and become acetyl CoA are termed ketogenic (cannot synthesize glucose).

An additional consideration against very high protein diets is that these diets do tend to increase direct glomerular filtration rate (GFR), the rate at which filtrate of the flow from the glomerulus to Bowman's capsule accrues (125 mL/min). They are, therefore, stressful to the kidneys, which might result in medical complications in susceptible individuals, dehydration, etc.
with all due respect bro but you have not written anything revealing here - the very basics that everyone knows exactly only in scientific language to make it sound nicer - and please do not take it as hate
 

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