TRUTH ABOUT STEROIDS PART 2

[PHIL HERNON]

18

18..........BOOM

 

[1Rhino1]

They do portray pot as such, how do I know, because I've sat through them. You aren't the only person who has been through shit "bucko".

Please quote where I said it can NEVER cause cancer, please find that and show it to me. Those words were never typed by me, I said that marijuana does not cause cancer after you posted that it does. Talking on your cellphone causes cancer, that is apparent because every person in America has a cell phone and has tumors growing out of their ears, oh wait, they don't. Just like the millions of people who smoke pot don't have lung cancer.

This was not your argument, nice to see you changed it. I'll say it, pot+cigarettes can cause cancer, main culprit being the cigarettes. If you are too blind or stupid to realize that these drug classes want to bastardize pot than that is your decision. Do you really think that drug classes given by the gvt are going to tell you anything else besides the horrors of drugs? :naughty:

Are you serious with this, this might be the most arrogant comment you made. You honestly think that you have had it sooo bad that nobody can even start to think that they've had it possibly worse than you? Get off your little high horse and come down to the reality that there are people that have been through worse than you. I don't know what you've been through, and I really don't care what you think you are capable of. Your little bad-ass innuendos are funny though, keep getting pissed off behind your screen. Perhaps you should find an anger management class next.

BTW, this is not an argument that you will ever win. As long as your "evidence" is provided by people that want marijuana to be bastardized, it is skewed to their personal findings, in other words, it is biased

You are very correct, the argument surely is biased. Neither one of us will win, I'm okay with that, I was just hit wrong and stuck to my guns, period, thats it.

I will have you know that I have not changed my argument once, other people have chimed in with this cig plus bud bullshit. I still 100% believe that mj can cause cancer just like cigs. That's all there is to it for me guy.

I don't give a fuck what one man or the next thinks of a drug class, I know what the fuck they are. I know what they ate about, and I know that this propaganda bullshit you are preaching is nothing but bullshit. When a drug counselor says this is a life or death thing, bud, it is. I promise you, it is not like that for everyone, but it def is for me, and it def was for my partner we buried last god damn week from an over dose. So don't give me that crock.

I would not for one second say my road has been any harder than anyone else's, you brought that up when you said don't act like others have been through less, some have been through more. Partner, you ain't got a clue what I've been through. Not a fucking clue, nowhere near it. Our acting like a pompous ass is what has fueled those statements, and i allowed it to anger me enough to keep going.

I honestly don't care about the issue anymore, you offended me anf I decided to tell you what i thought. Fuck what weed does to a mother fucker, there are far worse things.

I'll have you know that I have been through and graduated three anger management classes mother fucker. They successfully pissed me the fuck off, thats all.

 

[Cosmicdrifter]

18..........BOOM

Congrats!

 

[richiec]

You are very correct, the argument surely is biased. Neither one of us will win, I'm okay with that, I was just hit wrong and stuck to my guns, period, thats it.

I will have you know that I have not changed my argument once, other people have chimed in with this cig plus bud bullshit. I still 100% believe that mj can cause cancer just like cigs. That's all there is to it for me guy.

I don't give a fuck what one man or the next thinks of a drug class, I know what the fuck they are. I know what they ate about, and I know that this propaganda bullshit you are preaching is nothing but bullshit. When a drug counselor says this is a life or death thing, bud, it is. I promise you, it is not like that for everyone, but it def is for me, and it def was for my partner we buried last god damn week from an over dose. So don't give me that crock.

I would not for one second say my road has been any harder than anyone else's, you brought that up when you said don't act like others have been through less, some have been through more. Partner, you ain't got a clue what I've been through. Not a fucking clue, nowhere near it. Our acting like a pompous ass is what has fueled those statements, and i allowed it to anger me enough to keep going.

I honestly don't care about the issue anymore, you offended me anf I decided to tell you what i thought. Fuck what weed does to a mother fucker, there are far worse things.

I'll have you know that I have been through and graduated three anger management classes mother fucker. They successfully pissed me the fuck off, thats all.

So you are going to sit there and tell me that these classes are giving you 100% accurate information?

I truly am sorry about your friend, I have buried more than I want to remember due to overdoses, not one of them from pot. I have yet to see pot "destroy" someones life and their families lives like I've seen oxy's, coke, heroin and others do. Drugs are a life or death deal, but pot isn't, to me. I am a recovering alcoholic and addict so I understand what we go through.

You still seem to think that you've had the shittiest road to walk down. I could care less what you've been through, I'm saying that you need to understand that others have probably had it harder, which you don't want to grasp.

You've graduated from 3 anger management classes? They've obviously helped Why the need to curse so much???

 

[Avz]

So any sponsors need a new marketing pitch? Deca,dbol,anadrol stack.. Look great.. Feel even better!! Haha

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

So any sponsors need a new marketing pitch? Deca,dbol,anadrol stack.. Look great.. Feel even better!! Haha

Thats my point.........missed by a long shot, by many on here

 

[OuchThatHurts]

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

Without getting into a lengthy and meaningless debate discussing the semantics of the term "addiction" as opposed to "dependence", we can start in directly and conclude that steroids are in fact addictive AND cause dependence. So in my opinion, Phil is correct. Marijuana can be addictive/cause dependency - then again, so can chocolate, work, sex, heroin, gambling, etc.

There can be little arguing the fact even if we had only this board as example. While steroids are not associated with immediate satisfaction or gratification, the subsequent effects most certainly are. Very often steroid users subject themselves, ignoring health considerations, to higher and higher doses to achieve the same or increased effects. Do not presume to say to yourself, "I avoid the harmful side-effects by doing x, y, or z." This is similar to someone with an eating compulsion feeling their binge is okay as long as they purge their stomach afterward. Sometimes the addictive and dependent effects are not even immediate.

I could give a hundred examples but I'll just give one to prove a point. Let's say you are person who maybe does not like his/her appearance. Maybe you suffer also from low self-esteem. Maybe you're just tired of getting pushed around or passed over. Whatever the reason, you decide to train and take steroids. Your appearance improves perhaps along with your confidence. You approach girls you formerly would have thought out of your league. You go for promotions that normally would have felt out of your reach. This 'new you' is more successful than the old you and your desire to maintain the 'new you' is very acute. So much so that you may have panic attacks or anxiety at the very thought of going back to your impression of your perceptively disabled former self (weak, cowardly, unattractive). This is now serious business to you. You take multiple chemicals per day, you lift often, you are living a lifestyle obsession. All this is chemical induced - whether it be the steroids themselves increasing your sense of well-being or maybe just the normal human 'rush' of grabbing a higher position at work or having an attractive woman at your side. You have made zero personal growth mind you. This is all a costume. Or maybe you get to play a more powerful role in your own life's play/drama.

Now, you try to get away from the steroids. You get the flu, you lose weight. You lose strength. Your confidence and esteem erode away as the chemicals erode away. You begin to feel those old feelings again. Unfortunately, now it's not as simple. Your girlfriend who loved your muscle and confidence is now wondering what happened to you. People at work maybe think you are ill, on drugs, or whatever and now comes the crash. You chase your girl away because of your insecurities that have now returned in full force. You hate your job or maybe people begin to start to treat you like before. Maybe you feel like your whole life is a lie or that it's too "big" for you. The sad part is, with the right amount of confidence, you could continue going along your way but you never had much to start with and what you gained came from a syringe or pill.

So, are you going to become addicted to steroids the way you would become addicted or dependent on pain killers or cocaine? No. But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life. Meanwhile, your hair has fallen out and started growing on your back, acne, liver, kidney, high blood pressure, insulin sensitivity problems, prostate trouble.... well, you know the rest.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

I understand that this does not apply to all people but as I said was meant as an example - one of many. And the temptation today is greater than ever. I recently read a "Top Five Ways To Increase Your Salary" and every, EVERY, single one involved physical appearance. Number 4 was start drinking! Based on the networking you might do at happy hour or your local watering hole. The rest were Go Blonde, Grow a Mustache, etc. Here, see for yourself:

Make More Money: 7 Ways to Boost Your Pay (Slide 1 of 7) - CBS MoneyWatch.com

It's pathetic. None of these were "develop a new skill" or "increase your education". I suggest we all, myself included, take a few days to really evaluate what you're doing. I think this is something that should be done often. Get back in touch with yourself and forget the cars, money, fame, fortunes for a moment. None of these are worth anything if you lose your very self in the process. But you have to live with you. You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

 

[oldfella]

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

Without getting into a lengthy and meaningless debate discussing the semantics of the term "addiction" as opposed to "dependence", we can start in directly and conclude that steroids are in fact addictive AND cause dependence. So in my opinion, Phil is correct. Marijuana can be addictive/cause dependency - then again, so can chocolate, work, sex, heroin, gambling, etc.

There can be little arguing the fact even if we had only this board as example. While steroids are not associated with immediate satisfaction or gratification, the subsequent effects most certainly are. Very often steroid users subject themselves, ignoring health considerations, to higher and higher doses to achieve the same or increased effects. Do not presume to say to yourself, "I avoid the harmful side-effects by doing x, y, or z." This is similar to someone with an eating compulsion feeling their binge is okay as long as they purge their stomach afterward. Sometimes the addictive and dependent effects are not even immediate.

I could give a hundred examples but I'll just give one to prove a point. Let's say you are person who maybe does not like his/her appearance. Maybe you suffer also from low self-esteem. Maybe you're just tired of getting pushed around or passed over. Whatever the reason, you decide to train and take steroids. Your appearance improves perhaps along with your confidence. You approach girls you formerly would have thought out of your league. You go for promotions that normally would have felt out of your reach. This 'new you' is more successful than the old you and your desire to maintain the 'new you' is very acute. So much so that you may have panic attacks or anxiety at the very thought of going back to your impression of your perceptively disabled former self (weak, cowardly, unattractive). This is now serious business to you. You take multiple chemicals per day, you lift often, you are living a lifestyle obsession. All this is chemical induced - whether it be the steroids themselves increasing your sense of well-being or maybe just the normal human 'rush' of grabbing a higher position at work or having an attractive woman at your side. You have made zero personal growth mind you. This is all a costume. Or maybe you get to play a more powerful role in your own life's play/drama.

Now, you try to get away from the steroids. You get the flu, you lose weight. You lose strength. Your confidence and esteem erode away as the chemicals erode away. You begin to feel those old feelings again. Unfortunately, now it's not as simple. Your girlfriend who loved your muscle and confidence is now wondering what happened to you. People at work maybe think you are ill, on drugs, or whatever and now comes the crash. You chase your girl away because of your insecurities that have now returned in full force. You hate your job or maybe people begin to start to treat you like before. Maybe you feel like your whole life is a lie or that it's too "big" for you. The sad part is, with the right amount of confidence, you could continue going along your way but you never had much to start with and what you gained came from a syringe or pill.

So, are you going to become addicted to steroids the way you would become addicted or dependent on pain killers or cocaine? No. But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life. Meanwhile, your hair has fallen out and started growing on your back, acne, liver, kidney, high blood pressure, insulin sensitivity problems, prostate trouble.... well, you know the rest.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

I understand that this does not apply to all people but as I said was meant as an example - one of many. And the temptation today is greater than ever. I recently read a "Top Five Ways To Increase Your Salary" and every, EVERY, single one involved physical appearance. Number 4 was start drinking! Based on the networking you might do at happy hour or your local watering hole. The rest were Go Blonde, Grow a Mustache, etc. Here, see for yourself:

Make More Money: 7 Ways to Boost Your Pay (Slide 1 of 7) - CBS MoneyWatch.com

It's pathetic. None of these were "develop a new skill" or "increase your education". I suggest we all, myself included, take a few days to really evaluate what you're doing. I think this is something that should be done often. Get back in touch with yourself and forget the cars, money, fame, fortunes for a moment. None of these are worth anything if you lose your very self in the process. But you have to live with you. You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

Hell I'll help push this toward 20...........Ouch, as always great post. How the fuck can you argue with that. This is exactly the addiction I was referring to but did not put it so eloquently...LOL. I agree with this and also the feelings, both physical and mental associated with AAS use/abuse. It does create a sense of invulnerability and an attitude of WTF? Meaning I could care less about what people say or think. I'm big, Bad ass strong, and good looking. That is all that matters......oh I quess I could be driving a Lambo....that would help too. But then that might be another addiction altogether.
Ouch? Just one question, why did you wait till it got to 18 before posting? Were you just catering to Phil's ego here? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No offense Phil, Just playin!

 

[dan525]

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

Without getting into a lengthy and meaningless debate discussing the semantics of the term "addiction" as opposed to "dependence", we can start in directly and conclude that steroids are in fact addictive AND cause dependence. So in my opinion, Phil is correct. Marijuana can be addictive/cause dependency - then again, so can chocolate, work, sex, heroin, gambling, etc.

There can be little arguing the fact even if we had only this board as example. While steroids are not associated with immediate satisfaction or gratification, the subsequent effects most certainly are. Very often steroid users subject themselves, ignoring health considerations, to higher and higher doses to achieve the same or increased effects. Do not presume to say to yourself, "I avoid the harmful side-effects by doing x, y, or z." This is similar to someone with an eating compulsion feeling their binge is okay as long as they purge their stomach afterward. Sometimes the addictive and dependent effects are not even immediate.

I could give a hundred examples but I'll just give one to prove a point. Let's say you are person who maybe does not like his/her appearance. Maybe you suffer also from low self-esteem. Maybe you're just tired of getting pushed around or passed over. Whatever the reason, you decide to train and take steroids. Your appearance improves perhaps along with your confidence. You approach girls you formerly would have thought out of your league. You go for promotions that normally would have felt out of your reach. This 'new you' is more successful than the old you and your desire to maintain the 'new you' is very acute. So much so that you may have panic attacks or anxiety at the very thought of going back to your impression of your perceptively disabled former self (weak, cowardly, unattractive). This is now serious business to you. You take multiple chemicals per day, you lift often, you are living a lifestyle obsession. All this is chemical induced - whether it be the steroids themselves increasing your sense of well-being or maybe just the normal human 'rush' of grabbing a higher position at work or having an attractive woman at your side. You have made zero personal growth mind you. This is all a costume. Or maybe you get to play a more powerful role in your own life's play/drama.

Now, you try to get away from the steroids. You get the flu, you lose weight. You lose strength. Your confidence and esteem erode away as the chemicals erode away. You begin to feel those old feelings again. Unfortunately, now it's not as simple. Your girlfriend who loved your muscle and confidence is now wondering what happened to you. People at work maybe think you are ill, on drugs, or whatever and now comes the crash. You chase your girl away because of your insecurities that have now returned in full force. You hate your job or maybe people begin to start to treat you like before. Maybe you feel like your whole life is a lie or that it's too "big" for you. The sad part is, with the right amount of confidence, you could continue going along your way but you never had much to start with and what you gained came from a syringe or pill.

So, are you going to become addicted to steroids the way you would become addicted or dependent on pain killers or cocaine? No. But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life. Meanwhile, your hair has fallen out and started growing on your back, acne, liver, kidney, high blood pressure, insulin sensitivity problems, prostate trouble.... well, you know the rest.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

I understand that this does not apply to all people but as I said was meant as an example - one of many. And the temptation today is greater than ever. I recently read a "Top Five Ways To Increase Your Salary" and every, EVERY, single one involved physical appearance. Number 4 was start drinking! Based on the networking you might do at happy hour or your local watering hole. The rest were Go Blonde, Grow a Mustache, etc. Here, see for yourself:

Make More Money: 7 Ways to Boost Your Pay (Slide 1 of 7) - CBS MoneyWatch.com

It's pathetic. None of these were "develop a new skill" or "increase your education". I suggest we all, myself included, take a few days to really evaluate what you're doing. I think this is something that should be done often. Get back in touch with yourself and forget the cars, money, fame, fortunes for a moment. None of these are worth anything if you lose your very self in the process. But you have to live with you. You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

Awesome post! Probably the best post of the entire thread!

 

[1Rhino1]

So you are going to sit there and tell me that these classes are giving you 100% accurate information?

I truly am sorry about your friend, I have buried more than I want to remember due to overdoses, not one of them from pot. I have yet to see pot "destroy" someones life and their families lives like I've seen oxy's, coke, heroin and others do. Drugs are a life or death deal, but pot isn't, to me. I am a recovering alcoholic and addict so I understand what we go through.

You still seem to think that you've had the shittiest road to walk down. I could care less what you've been through, I'm saying that you need to understand that others have probably had it harder, which you don't want to grasp.

You've graduated from 3 anger management classes? They've obviously helped Why the need to curse so much???

You have missed the point completely bud. I never said pot is life or death. I never said it ruins families. None of that is an issue I'm trying to push. Drugs, serious drugs are life and death, and I am not saying that every single piece of info you get in a drug rehab facility is 100% true, not at all. What i said was that you saying they teach drugs like the movie refer madness portrayed weed was an ignorant, dumb, dip shit of a thing to say, you silly, silly Ho. That's all.

And here you are again with this other people have had it harder shit. Once again you don't know me, you don't have a fucking clue about me, you don't know what you are talking about. You sir, are talking out of your ass, and if we were standing by each other you would be one silly remark from falling on a dick.

Me saying I have had the hardest road ever, harder than any other would be like saying you are the baddest, hardest mother fucker that ever walked the earth. We know god damn well that there is someone, somewhere that could whip my ass, your ass, and somebody else's ass with their eyes closed. So why the fuck would I ever remark in that manner? And that is why it is so absurd for you to make your remark about others having it rougher. That is such an open ended statement, it is ridiculous. Of course there has to be someone somewhere who has had it just a little more rough. I'll put my shriveled up, no test producing right fuckin testicles on it.

It's offensive that some little smart ass on a board would go and make the wild assumption that what I have been through is nothing. Even if I had been through hardly anything, which is not the fuckin case mind you, it wouldn't matter to which degree someone else has gone, what would matter is how it sits between that mother fuckers ears boy. How bad did it affect ME..... not well I got beat by three black dudes and raped by six arabs, your two black dudes and 4 Arabs ain't shit. That is why I'm cussing and bothered. Don't make silly ass assumptions based on what you fuckin think bud.

You make me just wanna shit on somebody. Just crouch down and fucking shit. Here, you can have that, you are welcome. like just cupped it to three fulk protein shakes a day shit too, not some normal ass chicken dinner type shit. Some big, long, over sized type shit.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Ouch? Just one question, why did you wait till it got to 18 before posting? Were you just catering to Phil's ego here? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No offense Phil, Just playin!

I like Phil. Everyone knows that (or should). Oldfella, fact is, I knew when I weighed in, I would torpedo the thread. So I read and watched until I saw that 18 that Phil was gunning for.

I want everyone to know reading this right now, that if you understood my philosophy, you would inevitably come to the conclusion that some of what you read in my last post is indeed myself. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I'll leave it up to you good people to decide which portions. When it comes to problems of this nature, I will simply say that I am "more" than sympathetic if you understand the word fully.

Now I can go back to listening to what you good folks have to say!

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I see some strong feelings here and understand the desire to express yourself. But a few of you need to bring it down a notch. Let's be adults here - a lot of people are watching.

 

[dragonfire101]

"
But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

When does one cross the line were using the juice is addictive and negative behavior"steroid junkie" and using it for HRT

People on HRT (200mg test week, 2iu Gh a day)are looking to feel good, maintain youthfulness and health. We can say HRT is actually benefiting the body and has positive health effects on body as well as stronger physique and improved appearance.

....or

is this a different addiction in itself to not accept aging and to maintain and hold onto youth and physical well being as long as possible

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

OTH.....I felt like you were describing myself.......I think we all have that
" person" in us.........the " real" us........

 

[maldorf]

When does one cross the line were using the juice is addictive and negative behavior"steroid junkie" and using it for HRT

People on HRT (200mg test week, 2iu Gh a day)are looking to feel good, maintain youthfulness and health. We can say HRT is actually benefiting the body and has positive health effects on body as well as stronger physique and improved appearance.

....or

is this a different addiction in itself to not accept aging and to maintain and hold onto youth and physical well being as long as possible

Heck, most guys use the term "HRT" to descibe when they self administer test at levels that are still way supraphysiological. 200mg/wk is still 2x the usual dosage for most men. Most guys take about 100 mg/wk. The "hrt" label in this case is used to justify the abuse.

 

[LMR]

yes sir

I see some strong feelings here and understand the desire to express yourself. But a few of you need to bring it down a notch. Let's be adults here - a lot of people are watching.

 

[LMR]

Wow good one OTH... that bout sums it all up right there for me

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

Without getting into a lengthy and meaningless debate discussing the semantics of the term "addiction" as opposed to "dependence", we can start in directly and conclude that steroids are in fact addictive AND cause dependence. So in my opinion, Phil is correct. Marijuana can be addictive/cause dependency - then again, so can chocolate, work, sex, heroin, gambling, etc.

There can be little arguing the fact even if we had only this board as example. While steroids are not associated with immediate satisfaction or gratification, the subsequent effects most certainly are. Very often steroid users subject themselves, ignoring health considerations, to higher and higher doses to achieve the same or increased effects. Do not presume to say to yourself, "I avoid the harmful side-effects by doing x, y, or z." This is similar to someone with an eating compulsion feeling their binge is okay as long as they purge their stomach afterward. Sometimes the addictive and dependent effects are not even immediate.

I could give a hundred examples but I'll just give one to prove a point. Let's say you are person who maybe does not like his/her appearance. Maybe you suffer also from low self-esteem. Maybe you're just tired of getting pushed around or passed over. Whatever the reason, you decide to train and take steroids. Your appearance improves perhaps along with your confidence. You approach girls you formerly would have thought out of your league. You go for promotions that normally would have felt out of your reach. This 'new you' is more successful than the old you and your desire to maintain the 'new you' is very acute. So much so that you may have panic attacks or anxiety at the very thought of going back to your impression of your perceptively disabled former self (weak, cowardly, unattractive). This is now serious business to you. You take multiple chemicals per day, you lift often, you are living a lifestyle obsession. All this is chemical induced - whether it be the steroids themselves increasing your sense of well-being or maybe just the normal human 'rush' of grabbing a higher position at work or having an attractive woman at your side. You have made zero personal growth mind you. This is all a costume. Or maybe you get to play a more powerful role in your own life's play/drama.

Now, you try to get away from the steroids. You get the flu, you lose weight. You lose strength. Your confidence and esteem erode away as the chemicals erode away. You begin to feel those old feelings again. Unfortunately, now it's not as simple. Your girlfriend who loved your muscle and confidence is now wondering what happened to you. People at work maybe think you are ill, on drugs, or whatever and now comes the crash. You chase your girl away because of your insecurities that have now returned in full force. You hate your job or maybe people begin to start to treat you like before. Maybe you feel like your whole life is a lie or that it's too "big" for you. The sad part is, with the right amount of confidence, you could continue going along your way but you never had much to start with and what you gained came from a syringe or pill.

So, are you going to become addicted to steroids the way you would become addicted or dependent on pain killers or cocaine? No. But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life. Meanwhile, your hair has fallen out and started growing on your back, acne, liver, kidney, high blood pressure, insulin sensitivity problems, prostate trouble.... well, you know the rest.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

I understand that this does not apply to all people but as I said was meant as an example - one of many. And the temptation today is greater than ever. I recently read a "Top Five Ways To Increase Your Salary" and every, EVERY, single one involved physical appearance. Number 4 was start drinking! Based on the networking you might do at happy hour or your local watering hole. The rest were Go Blonde, Grow a Mustache, etc. Here, see for yourself:

Make More Money: 7 Ways to Boost Your Pay (Slide 1 of 7) - CBS MoneyWatch.com

It's pathetic. None of these were "develop a new skill" or "increase your education". I suggest we all, myself included, take a few days to really evaluate what you're doing. I think this is something that should be done often. Get back in touch with yourself and forget the cars, money, fame, fortunes for a moment. None of these are worth anything if you lose your very self in the process. But you have to live with you. You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

 

[cachexic]

"Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

Without getting into a lengthy and meaningless debate discussing the semantics of the term "addiction" as opposed to "dependence", we can start in directly and conclude that steroids are in fact addictive AND cause dependence. So in my opinion, Phil is correct. Marijuana can be addictive/cause dependency - then again, so can chocolate, work, sex, heroin, gambling, etc.

There can be little arguing the fact even if we had only this board as example. While steroids are not associated with immediate satisfaction or gratification, the subsequent effects most certainly are. Very often steroid users subject themselves, ignoring health considerations, to higher and higher doses to achieve the same or increased effects. Do not presume to say to yourself, "I avoid the harmful side-effects by doing x, y, or z." This is similar to someone with an eating compulsion feeling their binge is okay as long as they purge their stomach afterward. Sometimes the addictive and dependent effects are not even immediate.

I could give a hundred examples but I'll just give one to prove a point. Let's say you are person who maybe does not like his/her appearance. Maybe you suffer also from low self-esteem. Maybe you're just tired of getting pushed around or passed over. Whatever the reason, you decide to train and take steroids. Your appearance improves perhaps along with your confidence. You approach girls you formerly would have thought out of your league. You go for promotions that normally would have felt out of your reach. This 'new you' is more successful than the old you and your desire to maintain the 'new you' is very acute. So much so that you may have panic attacks or anxiety at the very thought of going back to your impression of your perceptively disabled former self (weak, cowardly, unattractive). This is now serious business to you. You take multiple chemicals per day, you lift often, you are living a lifestyle obsession. All this is chemical induced - whether it be the steroids themselves increasing your sense of well-being or maybe just the normal human 'rush' of grabbing a higher position at work or having an attractive woman at your side. You have made zero personal growth mind you. This is all a costume. Or maybe you get to play a more powerful role in your own life's play/drama.

Now, you try to get away from the steroids. You get the flu, you lose weight. You lose strength. Your confidence and esteem erode away as the chemicals erode away. You begin to feel those old feelings again. Unfortunately, now it's not as simple. Your girlfriend who loved your muscle and confidence is now wondering what happened to you. People at work maybe think you are ill, on drugs, or whatever and now comes the crash. You chase your girl away because of your insecurities that have now returned in full force. You hate your job or maybe people begin to start to treat you like before. Maybe you feel like your whole life is a lie or that it's too "big" for you. The sad part is, with the right amount of confidence, you could continue going along your way but you never had much to start with and what you gained came from a syringe or pill.

So, are you going to become addicted to steroids the way you would become addicted or dependent on pain killers or cocaine? No. But you are addicted to the lifestyle and rewards those drugs brought you for sure. Of course! Who wouldn't? Very few. You become so addicted/dependent on the juice that you just accept the fact that you are a "lifer" and that you are going to "blast and cruise" your way through life. Meanwhile, your hair has fallen out and started growing on your back, acne, liver, kidney, high blood pressure, insulin sensitivity problems, prostate trouble.... well, you know the rest.

The fact that you would continue to damage your body in this fashion for the rewards associated with a strong physique and good appearance implies addiction. It's reckless behavior. You become a steroid "junkie" for lack of a better word.

I understand that this does not apply to all people but as I said was meant as an example - one of many. And the temptation today is greater than ever. I recently read a "Top Five Ways To Increase Your Salary" and every, EVERY, single one involved physical appearance. Number 4 was start drinking! Based on the networking you might do at happy hour or your local watering hole. The rest were Go Blonde, Grow a Mustache, etc. Here, see for yourself:

Make More Money: 7 Ways to Boost Your Pay (Slide 1 of 7) - CBS MoneyWatch.com

It's pathetic. None of these were "develop a new skill" or "increase your education". I suggest we all, myself included, take a few days to really evaluate what you're doing. I think this is something that should be done often. Get back in touch with yourself and forget the cars, money, fame, fortunes for a moment. None of these are worth anything if you lose your very self in the process. But you have to live with you. You have to decide what you want in life. Is it a life of sincerity, reality, and sanity... or is it a life of falsehood, image, flash, bash, and run away with the cash?

Quite a long post and not a new perspective on the topic. People here in this thread have already tried to explain that steroids are addictive in a completely different way than recreational drugs. For example, me like 10 pages ago:

It might be semantics but I feel it is worth noting that without the physical improvements from these substances, no one would use or abuse them. Without actual muscle tissue being added to your frame, no one cares about these oils and tablets.

 

[Cosmicdrifter]

It might be semantics but I feel it is worth noting that without the physical improvements from these substances, no one would use or abuse them. Without actual muscle tissue being added to your frame, no one cares about these oils and tablets.

Some people appear to become addicted to steroids; that is clear because they use them in spite of the harm they are doing to their bodies and their quality of life.

Other people use them strategically to get the kind of gains they are looking for then stop. I did 3 cycles 8 years ago and then did not do another one until this year.

So we are generalizing one set of effects from a personality type to everyone who uses steroids. Addictive people overdo any substance that alters their state. You can say that alcohol is addictive as well because of the number of alcoholics we have in the US and the world. I drink one drink a week or sometimes none.

Using the guys on this board as examples is a not a random sample of people. Steroid boards are self-selected by people who have a hard-core interest in changing their bodies.

OTC asks for a decision about this; I think once you start being "on" year round, that is a definite sign that an objective decision is like deciding you are going to quit drinking or smoking; it takes a lot of things to get you to the crisis point where you decide to stop.

For guys who do one cycle a year (and there are quite a few guys on her who do) are they addicted? And, if not why not - because according to the opinions of some steroids are an addictive substance.

How many people do cocaine and never touch it again? I know many, but these are usually people who have professional careers and they are not willing to trade off their family and future for it. I used to do some once every year or two when at a party or something. Look at the celebrities who do it once and can't stop.

So bottom line we know that steroids can be addictive to some people, while they are not to others? Using a clinical scale of addictive capability, I think steroids fall way short of oxycodone, cocaine, and heroin.

So addiction is a function of the person (their personality type) and the substance. And an additional factor for many addicts is the situational factors in their lives - who are their friends (peer pressure), how much stress are they under, etc.

In sum, this thread makes good points about the potential dangers of steroid overuse and the fact that their use can easily overwhelm the people who use them to the point that it winds up ruining their lives - and that probability is high of certain people.

Anyone who is on all the time or cycling with test injections when off needs to reassess their future in light of the comments Phil had made and the OTH has summarized so well.

 

[Ness]

Proud to start No. 19...cont. on please