Help me go about this;

[NEMSZ]

Ok so I know there’s been a bunch of back and forth lately on this being “ProfessionalTRT” and “ProfessionalMuscle” etc lol and I don’t want this thread to be a part of that so if you don’t like my approach, feel free to just leave the thread alone…

But if you’re one of those guys that has built a great physique while being able to dabble a little bit and maintain health, I want to hear from you..

So let me start by saying that yes, I’m very health conscious these days and in the last 5 years I haven’t been over REAL TRT of anywhere from 100mg Test per week to the occasional 200mg Test per week then back down..

So, I’ve come to the realization that for the goals I want to achieve, I probably need a little extra but I’m not willing to completely throw health away for my goals, as they’re not even extreme goals to begin with..

That being said, with work and business finally being more scheduled I’m able to be a lot more consistent so for the past 5 weeks I’ve been dieting and here’s what it’s looked like;

Protein: 200-250g
Carbs: 100-200g (mostly fruits, sweet potatoes and rice) and I cycle up and down between those macros depending how I feel
Fats: 30g (ish)

The first 4 weeks of the diet I was doing PPL split but I MAYBE did cardio like 3x in total the last 4 weeks…

This past week I’ve started doing the Phil Hernon style full body routine and been doing 30 min fasted cardio every morning..

First 3 weeks I had my Test @ 300mg per week and last 2 weeks upped it to 150mg EOD… Also taking HGH 4iu per day..

Goals aren’t crazy as I want to be around 185lbs around 8%-9% but I am getting back into Kickboxing/Grappling etc as well so maintaining functional fitness and flexibility/movement and not getting too big/muscular was always my goal anyway..

Right now I don’t know my weight but I’ve dropped down to around 11% id say and no I’m not one of those “over/under estimators” I’m very aware of what legit bodyfat levels are and I don’t give myself too much credit..

Right now, goal is to get as lean as I can then worry about achieving the size that makes me happy… If I recomp and get there, cool. If I end up losing 15lbs to get lean then have to gain another 20lbs lean and slow to get there, then so be it.. But right now the goal is to get lean..

What would you do to get there while still being health conscious??

Tren is out of the question (lol )

Adding Trest in low dose??

Adding Primo? (Dosage help?)

Never messed with orals really and I know they wreck lipids pretty harshly but thought about adding Anavar or Tbol?

Adding more Test or GH??

Thanks in advance bros

 

[Swifto]

Test 100mg 3x week

Nandrolone 100mg 3x week

Primo 100mg 3x week

2iu GH per day.

 

[Lift2staysane]

I'm in a similar boat. I currently run 24mg test c a day as my trt. In the past 20mg. I'm 185 as well, with plans to keep growing. I ran a test/dhb cycle last winter which I enjoyed, but got no bloods and have no true idea what the health markers were. This winter I plan just to run test at 280mg maybe 400mg max for 12 weeks. I'm focused on health but want to slowly increase the gains. I personally won't touch primo for the impact on lipids. If I'm going to mess around with shit I'd rather use dhb which more fun and better gains. I don't run GH at all. I think keeping it simple with test, a clean diet and cardio is how to focus on health while still enjoying some fun with juice.

Curious to see what others say.

 

[Cerberus777]

Without getting blood work it's hard to say. What works for me vs what works for you. Primo treats me very well. I can do 200 test 500 primo for a while with 4iu gh.
Sometimes I'll do 350mg test 350mg primo, I'll cruise if blood work starts to go down.

 

[NEMSZ]

Test 100mg 3x week

Nandrolone 100mg 3x week

Primo 100mg 3x week

2iu GH per day.

Isn’t Nandrolone horrible for the heart?? Or is that overblown??

Wouldn’t think Nandrolone would be a staple trying to get as lean as possible but then again I’ve never used it, only gone by what people say about it lol..

 

[NEMSZ]

Without getting blood work it's hard to say. What works for me vs what works for you. Primo treats me very well. I can do 200 test 500 primo for a while with 4iu gh.
Sometimes I'll do 350mg test 350mg primo, I'll cruise if blood work starts to go down.

I was thinking something similar like a 1:1 ratio of Test and Primo, I know some people have issues with Primo and HDL and some don’t, but that seems to be the extent of it..

I do plan on doing my own bloodwork to verify how I’m specifically effected but there are AAS that are significantly worse than others on health in general so I’m trying to go by other people’s experience in that sense..

Not saying lower HDL isn’t bad long term but I do take health supps and I’m prescribed Vascepa as well and all my other lipids are always in perfect range (Trigs 70, LDL 75, Total 120-130) with the exception of HDL being a little on the lower side of 40-45 no matter what I do, cardio, Vascepa, low carb, low fat etc.. So I figure as long as everything else is optimal then I’m good..

Plus I’ve done my Apo-b and Lipo (a) tests and they’re in optimal range as well..

 

[qbkilla]

I think I've said this before but if you train hard and give training diet good effort, 185 should be lean. Not 12, 13 percent but being 185 lean 8 percent is easy on 400mg Total with minimal cardio.

If your 185 and not lean, obviously you want to cut back and get to a good bf and your calorie level is low so I assume you are

My concerns your 185 and not lean and plan to cut then you want to build muscle, how do you know you won't just flatten up ?

I personally think for you a bro split would be better

Chest
Back
Legs
Off
Arms
Delts

8 sets to failure. I am assuming based on your post and stats you haven't been consistent, training intensity may not be there, or something is off. I wouldn't be doing any fancy training routine and 30 minutes cardio Ed on that low amount of calories, hitting the gym 2x a day, just doesn't seem very sustainable. Not trying to be offensive that is my opinion, I think you try to optimize things to your detriment. If your not getting stronger week to week to week, your just spinning your Wheels.

 

[Cerberus777]

I was thinking something similar like a 1:1 ratio of Test and Primo, I know some people have issues with Primo and HDL and some don’t, but that seems to be the extent of it..

I do plan on doing my own bloodwork to verify how I’m specifically effected but there are AAS that are significantly worse than others on health in general so I’m trying to go by other people’s experience in that sense..

Not saying lower HDL isn’t bad long term but I do take health supps and I’m prescribed Vascepa as well and all my other lipids are always in perfect range (Trigs 70, LDL 75, Total 120-130) with the exception of HDL being a little on the lower side of 40-45 no matter what I do, cardio, Vascepa, low carb, low fat etc.. So I figure as long as everything else is optimal then I’m good..

Plus I’ve done my Apo-b and Lipo (a) tests and they’re in optimal range as well..

I take a lot of precautions as well, primo dosnt crush my estrogen it's neutral to mild AI, you'll probably be good with your precautions.

 

[td]

Height? Weight? Age? Years training? Relative strength level?

 

[NEMSZ]

I think I've said this before but if you train hard and give training diet good effort, 185 should be lean. Not 12, 13 percent but being 185 lean 8 percent is easy on 400mg Total with minimal cardio.

If your 185 and not lean, obviously you want to cut back and get to a good bf and your calorie level is low so I assume you are

My concerns your 185 and not lean and plan to cut then you want to build muscle, how do you know you won't just flatten up ?

I personally think for you a bro split would be better

Chest
Back
Legs
Off
Arms
Delts

8 sets to failure. I am assuming based on your post and stats you haven't been consistent, training intensity may not be there, or something is off. I wouldn't be doing any fancy training routine and 30 minutes cardio Ed on that low amount of calories, hitting the gym 2x a day, just doesn't seem very sustainable. Not trying to be offensive that is my opinion, I think you try to optimize things to your detriment. If your not getting stronger week to week to week, your just spinning your Wheels.

Hey bro, thanks for the reply..

And yea, I’m sure maintaining 185 and real lean is easy on 300-400 total but I’m just trying to get there a little bit faster lol.. Not “fuck my health” fast but like in 6 months people are like “damn you look amazing” fast lol..

And no, right now I’m not 185… I started this around 180lbs and like 14% and I’d say I’m mid-low 170s and significantly leaner.. My goal is to be around 185lbs and 8%..

I’m on the low calories because I just want to get as lean as I can, preferably sooner, to grow lean.. And it’s been sustainable this long, I don’t feel like I’m absolutely starving myself like I would if I were to try to get it done in 2-3 weeks, I have my days where I’m super hungry depending on activity level though..

I don’t mind having to be a little flat and “small” as long as I start from a good base and low bodyfat levels.. I feel like it’s easier to pull back on food and readjust when lean than letting yourself go and having to diet a long while to get back to shape.. I like the thought of for example when Luki goes on his 2 week (if I remember correctly) mini cuts to readjust and gain insulin sensitivity etc and go back to growing but still being lean as fuck..

As for my past, yea the last few months have been tougher to get consistent because of work and my schedule but I’ve got it under better control now so it’s definitely doable.. With food and training alike.. The last few months, probably since the beginning of the year it’s been;

I’ll hit the gym 2-3x a week on average, get a couple runs in when I can, some sprints or echo bike etc.. I don’t have any specific genetic gifts other than I’m blessed that I can eat absolutely absurd amounts of food and not get “fat”.. What I mean is that since the beginning of the year is eat very clean and good foods 80% of the the time (well, I’ve been that way forever, not just since this year)… But that 20% would put some guys on “My 600lb life” lol.. I’d have weeks where I’d eat a pint of ice cream every night with a Nutella sandwich, easily like 2000 calories in that one “meal” and I’d easily eat regularly (yes I measured with MyFitnessPal app) like 5k calories a day, with some weekends easily going above 7-8k calories…

I’d always be around 178-182lbs and like 13-14%… So, while I’m not one of the lucky ones that looks like an NFL Corner Back eating like that, I didn’t look horrible either and maintained an average fit look for fucking off as much as I have..

So back to training intensity and diet etc, it’s definitely been off prior to the past 5 weeks but I’ve definitely made some improvements… I just want the improvements a little faster; hence the full body workouts and the added cardio every day and perhaps some added AAS that I can dabble with safely…

But yes, the plan is that when I get to the leanness I want; to slowly add the food (clean food obviously) and reduce cardio a bit (I love cardio regardless for mental health) and completely changing my routine to this split;

Day 1: Delts, Traps, Tris, Abs
Day 2: Back, Rear Delts
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Chest, Biceps, Abs
Day 5: Quads, Hams, Calves
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Repeat

Got from a Dorian Yates article and loved the split the most of everything I’ve tried in the past.. So doing that wi to progressive overload and getting stronger etc is definitely the goal to grow, although with the full body routine I still try to progressive overload every day from the day before..

 

[NEMSZ]

Height? Weight? Age? Years training? Relative strength level?

5’9

Low-Mid 170’s (I don’t really know my weight right now lol)

Training on and off since I was 15 in many different things lol

I’ve been told I’m pretty strong for where I’m at but I don’t consider myself very strong;

Some Recent notable lifts were;

Deadlift 325 x 5

Squat 225 x 20

Cable Row 200 x 8

T-bar row 185 x 8

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Your calories look low. Protein looks like it can be increased. Its been over twenty years, April 2001, since Ive weighed 185 lbs. Even at a natural lean 205 calories were higher, even at natural 215 lean and more muscular calories were way higher .

gh for sure 1-2 ius a day. Long term this can help a lot. At the least skin will appear more fruitful.

anabolics I dont know if your prostate or hair is effected so you more than likely know this about yourself more than I. I can only give you information.

 

[juggy38]

3iu GH for sure.

Since your wanting to go UP in muscle mass, your gonna need to push harder than say your 220 fluffy wanting to lean down to a solid ass 185.

300 test/400 primo/200 nandrolone. Light, but much faster than trying to do it with 400mg total of test primo.

 

[qbkilla]

Hey bro, thanks for the reply..

And yea, I’m sure maintaining 185 and real lean is easy on 300-400 total but I’m just trying to get there a little bit faster lol.. Not “fuck my health” fast but like in 6 months people are like “damn you look amazing” fast lol..

And no, right now I’m not 185… I started this around 180lbs and like 14% and I’d say I’m mid-low 170s and significantly leaner.. My goal is to be around 185lbs and 8%..

I’m on the low calories because I just want to get as lean as I can, preferably sooner, to grow lean.. And it’s been sustainable this long, I don’t feel like I’m absolutely starving myself like I would if I were to try to get it done in 2-3 weeks, I have my days where I’m super hungry depending on activity level though..

I don’t mind having to be a little flat and “small” as long as I start from a good base and low bodyfat levels.. I feel like it’s easier to pull back on food and readjust when lean than letting yourself go and having to diet a long while to get back to shape.. I like the thought of for example when Luki goes on his 2 week (if I remember correctly) mini cuts to readjust and gain insulin sensitivity etc and go back to growing but still being lean as fuck..

As for my past, yea the last few months have been tougher to get consistent because of work and my schedule but I’ve got it under better control now so it’s definitely doable.. With food and training alike.. The last few months, probably since the beginning of the year it’s been;

I’ll hit the gym 2-3x a week on average, get a couple runs in when I can, some sprints or echo bike etc.. I don’t have any specific genetic gifts other than I’m blessed that I can eat absolutely absurd amounts of food and not get “fat”.. What I mean is that since the beginning of the year is eat very clean and good foods 80% of the the time (well, I’ve been that way forever, not just since this year)… But that 20% would put some guys on “My 600lb life” lol.. I’d have weeks where I’d eat a pint of ice cream every night with a Nutella sandwich, easily like 2000 calories in that one “meal” and I’d easily eat regularly (yes I measured with MyFitnessPal app) like 5k calories a day, with some weekends easily going above 7-8k calories…

I’d always be around 178-182lbs and like 13-14%… So, while I’m not one of the lucky ones that looks like an NFL Corner Back eating like that, I didn’t look horrible either and maintained an average fit look for fucking off as much as I have..

So back to training intensity and diet etc, it’s definitely been off prior to the past 5 weeks but I’ve definitely made some improvements… I just want the improvements a little faster; hence the full body workouts and the added cardio every day and perhaps some added AAS that I can dabble with safely…

But yes, the plan is that when I get to the leanness I want; to slowly add the food (clean food obviously) and reduce cardio a bit (I love cardio regardless for mental health) and completely changing my routine to this split;

Day 1: Delts, Traps, Tris, Abs
Day 2: Back, Rear Delts
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Chest, Biceps, Abs
Day 5: Quads, Hams, Calves
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Repeat

Got from a Dorian Yates article and loved the split the most of everything I’ve tried in the past.. So doing that wi to progressive overload and getting stronger etc is definitely the goal to grow, although with the full body routine I still try to progressive overload every day from the day before..

I wouldn't say you have good genetics to not get fat if you have been 14 percent, that's pretty fluffy for our standard. If you could eat anything and stay 7, then you would have good genetics for staying lean.

I'd do like your doing, get lean, then grow lean, tiny surplus 2lbs a month, accept no fat gain is fine, but the weight will have to go on slow.

That routine hurt my eyes. You need the simplest routine and you need to stick to it. From your posts I can tell you don't live and breathe the gym, you don't make it a priority. You have difficulty with adherence and you will doubt your routine 1 week in and do a new one based on a thread you see. A bro split is fun and tried and true and perfect for guys with poor genetics who lack motivation. No offense with that last sentence your just not someone who lives and dies by the gym which is fine but also explains how your smaller and not even lean. Intensity effort consistency are key, not how many mg or what split your on 300 of this or 400 of that doesn't matter if you hit the gym 2-3 a week

 

[Performance Based]

Responding on my phone so please bare with me:

Your goals seem more in line with mine than a “bodybuilder”. I have multiple logs in the log section, all performance based. Heaps of data, over 100 labs completed.

I never go over 200mg of test, anymore has sever cardiovascular downsides regarding performance.

100-150 is ideal, 200 keeps me a bit fuller and honestly I notice a difference in recovery. My E2 also crashed on anything less than 200 with primo or EQ.

I would highly suggest starting with 150 test + 300 EQ.

Off season cruise is 200 test 300-400EQ. Minimum of a two a day + a performance session, usually 4,500 calorie burn days.

In season is usually a three a day + performance session.

2IU of GH year round. Playing around with weeks of 10 and 5iu per week. RHR while sleeping has raised from 42-44 to 62-66. It’s been an utter disaster. Have two more days of it to finish out the data I need.

Primo is fantastic however I get some pretty insane pumps at over 500-600mg that hinder performance.

Can go into detail if you would like. Just typing on the phone is a bit hard. I bounce between 212 and 217 at 11-13% year round. Maintain triple six year round (600 squat, 600 dead, 6 min mile), sub 2 min 800.

 

[Bio]

In your case I would add in low dose Masteron and Trest. I think you'll be pleased with the results!

 

[NEMSZ]

I wouldn't say you have good genetics to not get fat if you have been 14 percent, that's pretty fluffy for our standard. If you could eat anything and stay 7, then you would have good genetics for staying lean.

I'd do like your doing, get lean, then grow lean, tiny surplus 2lbs a month, accept no fat gain is fine, but the weight will have to go on slow.

That routine hurt my eyes. You need the simplest routine and you need to stick to it. From your posts I can tell you don't live and breathe the gym, you don't make it a priority. You have difficulty with adherence and you will doubt your routine 1 week in and do a new one based on a thread you see. A bro split is fun and tried and true and perfect for guys with poor genetics who lack motivation. No offense with that last sentence your just not someone who lives and dies by the gym which is fine but also explains how your smaller and not even lean. Intensity effort consistency are key, not how many mg or what split your on 300 of this or 400 of that doesn't matter if you hit the gym 2-3 a week

No offense taken bro; it’s pretty true… Weight lifting/bodybuilding has never been a passion of mine, I actually find it really, really boring.. I prefer to train in anything functional fitness or definitley some grappling or cracking pads etc buuuuut that obviously doesn’t make one look the way I want lol, just speaking in a sense of what’s funner for me… But yea, I’m aware that weight lifting/bodybuilding style training is what I’ll need to get the look I want..

And let’s be clear with what I said;

I said that I don’t have any genetic gifts but I’m blessed to be able to eat absurd amounts of food and not get “fat”.. I also said I’m not the type to look like an NFL player eating like that lol…

But when I say “not get fat” I DONT mean bodybuilding standards… I’m aware there’s guys on this board that if you don’t have striated glutes then you’re fat lol.. Others consider anything above 10% fat, which I can agree with in those standards..

But there’s definitely guys on here who if they would eat the way I USED to eat, they’d be fat lards…

You’ve got guys like DanielTX who are eating 7-8k calories a day (if I recall correctly) to try and maintain above 280lbs…

You’ve got guys like Mikey Musumeci who eat 10k calories a day, literally eats pizza and pasta every night, and he’s like 140lbs and 6% bodyfat year round. (He’s a world champion BJJ guy, not a bodybuilder)…

And although I’m not one of those guys, I promise you I can hang eating with them and while yea, I don’t look like a freak, I definitely don’t look like I can eat that much…

In typing all this, I came up with the perfect explanation for my “gift”

“I can eat like a perma bulker and not look like a perma bulker” is probably what I should’ve said lmao

I know you’ve got some experience with that lol.. You’ve talked about how structured your diet is and how consistent you are and you’re lean year round but you had your phase where you perma bulked and were like 230lbs sloppy, right?? I couldn’t weigh 230lbs if my life depended on it lol…

But I do agree with you on everything though; I appreciate the fact you’re one of the few guys who also throws in the factor of diet, hard training and consistency every time you give advice… It’s the truth and a MAJOR factor..

I’ve looked good before, this isn’t my first time picking up weights etc, but let’s face it; being 22 years old with minimal responsibility and taking Tren etc is waaaaayy different than where my life is at now at 32, owning my own business and being hands on with absolutely everything.. That’s a huge factor that’s played into my inconsistency in these past few years…

But now that things are more consistent with my business, which is my highest priority, I can take care of myself and I’ve been consistent with training and diet the last 5 weeks without fail and plan on keeping that consistency throughout this endeavor.. I’ve put it off long enough..

So that’s what leads me to;

“What can I add in to my protocol to get to my goal faster, but still maintain health as a priority”

Because we both know, there’s only so fast consistency and diet will take you lol…

 

[NEMSZ]

Responding on my phone so please bare with me:

Your goals seem more in line with mine than a “bodybuilder”. I have multiple logs in the log section, all performance based. Heaps of data, over 100 labs completed.

I never go over 200mg of test, anymore has sever cardiovascular downsides regarding performance.

100-150 is ideal, 200 keeps me a bit fuller and honestly I notice a difference in recovery. My E2 also crashed on anything less than 200 with primo or EQ.

I would highly suggest starting with 150 test + 300 EQ.

Off season cruise is 200 test 300-400EQ. Minimum of a two a day + a performance session, usually 4,500 calorie burn days.

In season is usually a three a day + performance session.

2IU of GH year round. Playing around with weeks of 10 and 5iu per week. RHR while sleeping has raised from 42-44 to 62-66. It’s been an utter disaster. Have two more days of it to finish out the data I need.

Primo is fantastic however I get some pretty insane pumps at over 500-600mg that hinder performance.

Can go into detail if you would like. Just typing on the phone is a bit hard. I bounce between 212 and 217 at 11-13% year round. Maintain triple six year round (600 squat, 600 dead, 6 min mile), sub 2 min 800.

Thanks for the reply bro..

Yea, I’d love for you to go more into detail..

No rush, take your time, whenever you have a computer present..

But yea I’d love to hear your input on training, diet and AAS protocols..

I’ll definitely go check out your logs now

 

[Performance Based]

What athletic metrics are you trying to hit? Will help guide the conversation a bit.

Your all over the place (as am I) with pad work, rolling, sprints, etc. but does anything take precedence?

To start the conversation:
I have set physical standards I have to maintain for work function annually culminating in a bi-yearly test. As long as I do not stray from these standards more than 15% I can pursue whatever endeavors that interest me.

Fitness needs to get broken down to
Work capacity
Endurance
Range of motion
Strength/Explosiveness
General athletic movement

For programming I highly recommend Jeff Nichols, he writes all my stuff. Power program is legit the tits. If you are new to athletic programming I highly recommend starting here and following it to a T.

Performance First

Jeff Nichols is certified as a Strength and Conditioning Coach (CSCS) from the NSCA and TSAC-F with distinction.

www.performancefirstus.com

Diet - I am a massive fan of carb cycling. Depending on level of activity 3-4 days of 750 grams per day.

Anabolics - If you aren’t destroying yourself (start monitoring your HRV, highly recommend an Oura ring over whoop band) I wouldn’t recommend “cycling”. 150-200 Test + 300 EQ + 2IU of GH year round has profound effects for me. 50mg of nandro helps a bit with joint pain. I have negative effects with 100mg+.

Anabolics I respond negatively to
More than 50mg nandro
DHB at 200+mg
Masteron any dosage
Primo at 400+mg
Tren at any dosage

When I say poor response DHB+Masteron+primo extreme pumps akin to compartment syndrome that limit performance and output

Tren mile time legit went from 5:44 to over 7 with the same effort one week in.

Unusual notations
Anavar - excited the CNS/PNS, fantastic for anaerobic performance. Do not take for distance runs though or performance events (Muay Thai/jitz).

 

[Swifto]

Isn’t Nandrolone horrible for the heart?? Or is that overblown??

Wouldn’t think Nandrolone would be a staple trying to get as lean as possible but then again I’ve never used it, only gone by what people say about it lol..

Studies were on rats who have different endocrine and haematological systems.

Its not bad on my lipids, but it might be bad on yours.

Experiment and get bloods done.