No response to AAS?

[smackthatAAS]

Im not sure how to convince any one that I dont just fuck around in the gym and eat like shit. I am extremely methodical in everything I do related to BBing.

SO, how about we just play devils advocate and "pretend" I wasnt doing chest/bi's everyday and eating salad 6x per day... please? Then what would you say?

 

[Performance Based]

bro i don't argue with assholes so if you want to have a positive discussion on the issue change your pompous attitude.

im a chemist by trade and no dummy. not the smartest or biggest on the board but at 5'6" i struggled to break 200lbs until i took my diet seriously. once i started counting calories and measuring food i could understand the dose/response relationship between food and gains.

but until you start measuring and looking for relationships its bro science.

Oh for god sakes, lets be realistic here... Natural all his life his first cycle at 500mg and NO results? Even with a completely shitting diet the correlation of that just doesn't happen.

OP I didn't notice your stats, not sure how advanced you are. But I am assuming were not talking about someone 250 at 6% where an extreme break down of macros is going to matter on such a drastic scale.

 

[anarchocapitalist]

regardless a 1000mg front load followed by 500mg/wk testosterone is a big first cycle and you should have seen some serious strength gains. at 210lbs weight with 1/5 of your mass fat (50lbs fat on a 168lbs frame) you probably aren't going to see much change in the mirror.

oh for sure. ^ thats what i originally wrote. its odd that blood levels were through the roof and no strength gains. thats why im questioning the nutrition.

 

[smackthatAAS]

oh for sure. ^ thats what i originally wrote. its odd that blood levels were through the roof and no strength gains. thats why im questioning the nutrition.

PR's

Incline BB BP: 285x3
Deadlift: 450x1
Squat; 350x1

Squat is very weak due to a bad knee so I usually do 'em last a la Meadows recommendation.

EDIT: I dont really lift for numbers. I try to feel the muscle, hit the 8-12 rep range, and add weight WHEN I CAN

 

[VNV]

My best guess would be however much adex you took, it lowered your estrogen too low.

 

[1love]

Question???

Duff, the studies you are referring to...They are on individuals with chronic illness's or disease, correct?

Obviosly they are not allowed to test on healthy individuals (as it is illegal), but do do testing on men with low test that require trt/hrt.

I definitely see that some muscle mass will be gained by all that would use aas, expect more from someone who's body has stopped producing muscle growing hormones for sure.

But a healthy young man who's body is used to working out with the weights that he is always used to? Eating foods that his body is used to(albeit he was at maintenance levels according to him, looking to recomp)?
I would expect some gains, not necessarily significant gains, nor would I expect to see much of them kept.
I also would say that one would see a small change with changing nothing but adding aas. Significant..no Long lasting...no.

Just my thoughts, and would love to hear more on this. From all, but it definitely can be done without insulting each other.

To the OP, what were your beginning stats? End stats? Were any gains made at any point in the cycle?

 

[smackthatAAS]

Question???
To the OP, what were your beginning stats? End stats? Were any gains made at any point in the cycle?

No gains in strength, stayed exactly the same. Logged my weights and measurements (scale weight, arm/chest/leg measurements, and photos).

I thought if I werent gaining any size/strength I would still drop some fat at least but even that didnt happen.

 

[duff]

bro i don't argue with assholes so if you want to have a positive discussion on the issue change your pompous attitude.

im a chemist by trade and no dummy. not the smartest or biggest on the board but at 5'6" i struggled to break 200lbs until i took my diet seriously. once i started counting calories and measuring food i could understand the dose/response relationship between food and gains.

but until you start measuring and looking for relationships its bro science.

It's not being pompous, it's frustration. You being a chemist I suspect we have a similar understanding of many of the issues we discuss here. Many, aren't at that scientific level but that's no reason for not applying common sense. I got accepted to med school ( which i am currently attending) as I was completing my masters in exercise physiology. I have seen the raw unbiased data. Most aren't going to just take my word for it or lack the scientific background. So all I ask is that everybody stop and use common sense for a second. I cannot articulate the validitity of my point anymore than the puberty example. Puberty is everyone's true first cycle. We grow at an unequalled rate during this time and diet and training are basically irrelevant. STOP, re-read because you want to skip that part. Now offer a reasonable explanation why diet and training have little effect on puberty. Let's not complicate the matter by bringing in hgh, myostatin, etc, etc. Theoretically, and quite likely, everyone could reach their genetic max with exogenous test alone! Genetics is another biggie that gets regurgitated over and over again without the poster really knowing what they are saying. What is genetic max or genetic potential? It the amount of muscle mass that your body's hormone level can support, increase the hormone level and guess what follows? Again remember this is in regards to a first cycle!

 

[1love]

No gains in strength, stayed exactly the same. Logged my weights and measurements (scale weight, arm/chest/leg measurements, and photos).

I thought if I werent gaining any size/strength I would still drop some fat at least but even that didnt happen.

See thats what Im questioning. And by no means am I trying to make a point. But if you were moving the same weights that you could do without the aas. How much change in muscle will one see? Body fat?...well that can be achieved by a combo of many things. But muscle growth, you have to start increasing weight???

Your actual body weight stayed the same? Or did you have any Bf testing pre and post?

What were your test levels and estro levels to be exact?

 

[anabolicscuba]

Check your estrogen I made no gains for years and found out my estro was 260s. Estro is now 20 and I just had my bf tested 4 weeks ago and again put on 15 lbs if lean mass.

This. Same story with myself. High estrogen will hender gains like no other

 

[duff]

Question???

Duff, the studies you are referring to...They are on individuals with chronic illness's or disease, correct?

Obviosly they are not allowed to test on healthy individuals (as it is illegal), but do do testing on men with low test that require trt/hrt.

I definitely see that some muscle mass will be gained by all that would use aas, expect more from someone who's body has stopped producing muscle growing hormones for sure.

But a healthy young man who's body is used to working out with the weights that he is always used to? Eating foods that his body is used to(albeit he was at maintenance levels according to him, looking to recomp)?
I would expect some gains, not necessarily significant gains, nor would I expect to see much of them kept.
I also would say that one would see a small change with changing nothing but adding aas. Significant..no Long lasting...no.

Just my thoughts, and would love to hear more on this. From all, but it definitely can be done without insulting each other.

To the OP, what were your beginning stats? End stats? Were any gains made at any point in the cycle?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating using gear and not training. Nor am i saying proper training, rest, and nutrition wont greatly enhance the effects of AAS. My point is simply that the OP was sold bunk gear. Believe me or not, but your first few cycles will yield results regardless of the users protocol. Genetic max can be obtained through use of exogenous hormones alone. That's what your genetic potential is, the FFM you can maintain based on your hormone level. Increase that level and gains in FFM will follow

 

[wizim]

simply that the OP was sold bunk gear.

:yeahthat:

 

[wizim]

sponsor from this board?

 

[VNV]

sponsor from this board?

He said he tested his test and it was off the charts.

 

[1love]

Yes, Quite possibly bunk. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt here. As no one has seen the op's pre/post testing data, nor given any conclusive data of his diet/training/age/weight, etc. to see if he tried to maximize results. But I definitely agree some results would have been seen at that dosage regardless if he had everything at point if it was legit gear. OP, This is by no means trying to offend you or call you out. We are trying to conclude what is the problem here. And to those with high estro, at what levels did you notice a decrease or nill in results??

 

[anarchocapitalist]

i have to confess i'm no longer a working chemist. i was an oil/gas chemist and got cancer so i decided to stop playing around with that shit. now i work for a college. broke but cancer free haha. anyways i just know chemicals i don't know why a teenager would grow without food. i actually find that hard to believe as most teenagers i know pound back food. my children are young but some of my friends have teenagers and they go through nearly a gallon of milk a day. they buy cases of eggs not cartons lol. i always thought poor nutrition delayed puberty and undereating impaired growth. but i'm no biologist.

regardless as i've mentioned i have first hand experience. using steroids since '95 i've half assed my diet on a good cycle more than once and got no where. then i've trained naturally for a year or so with 100% spot on nutrition and made better gains than a 1/2 assed cycle. made me realize how important nutrition is in growth.

 

[Stupes]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating using gear and not training. Nor am i saying proper training, rest, and nutrition wont greatly enhance the effects of AAS. My point is simply that the OP was sold bunk gear. Believe me or not, but your first few cycles will yield results regardless of the users protocol. Genetic max can be obtained through use of exogenous hormones alone. That's what your genetic potential is, the FFM you can maintain based on your hormone level. Increase that level and gains in FFM will follow

Agreed. If the OP was truly going along training and eating - then added in 500mg test while continuing to train and eat the same/similar he should grow/get stronger, period. It is a simple equation. The OP said he kicked up the intensity a bit - which is perfectly typical.

Fake gear is the obvious answer - BUT his blood results said his levels were through the roof. Doesn't add up - the bloods were wrong?????

I have a hard time believing that there is a living mammal in the entire world that is immune to testosterone - sorry OP that isn't the answer IMO.

 

[1love]

I am not well informed on moutaindogs diet? And not sure if the OP is paying for advice or going of the thread? Because many use guidelines for their diets and tailor to actually meet their own bodies needs. How can he be cerain he is eating enough calories to grow or build muscle?? Ahh, so many questions and so little time. GO TIGERS!!!!!

 

[1love]

Agreed. If the OP was truly going along training and eating - then added in 500mg test while continuing to train and eat the same/similar he should grow/get stronger, period. It is a simple equation. The OP said he kicked up the intensity a bit - which is perfectly typical.

Fake gear is the obvious answer - BUT his blood results said his levels were through the roof. Doesn't add up - the bloods were wrong?????

I have a hard time believing that there is a living mammal in the entire world that is immune to testosterone - sorry OP that isn't the answer IMO.

Agreed. However he never did give us the actual number, just stated they were off the charts. If its thru a good sponsor on here then it shouldn't be bunk. Which leaves us with other areas to look at.

 

[Stupes]

i have to confess i'm no longer a working chemist. i was an oil/gas chemist and got cancer so i decided to stop playing around with that shit. now i work for a college. broke but cancer free haha. anyways i just know chemicals i don't know why a teenager would grow without food. i actually find that hard to believe as most teenagers i know pound back food. my children are young but some of my friends have teenagers and they go through nearly a gallon of milk a day. they buy cases of eggs not cartons lol. i always thought poor nutrition delayed puberty and undereating impaired growth. but i'm no biologist.

regardless as i've mentioned i have first hand experience. using steroids since '95 i've half assed my diet on a good cycle more than once and got no where. then i've trained naturally for a year or so with 100% spot on nutrition and made better gains than a 1/2 assed cycle. made me realize how important nutrition is in growth.

The OP was training naturally for 9 years and says this:

-Diet was completely clean followed Mountain Dog Diet to the letter.

-Ate maintenance calories (trying to recomp) 2300 cals

That's enough for a recomp.

If you go along with great nutrition and training - then hop on 500 test and eat horribly and stop training then the cycle will suck to say the least. But if the OP was truly going along training, eating and then added in 500 test without drastically changing his training and continues to get nutrition then he will grow. No question.

Hell - if you are a guy going along eating like slob and not training - then you add in 500 test, and continue eating like a slob and not training you will experience a reduction in BF and increase in muscle - no doubt. Simple equation.