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Question For Dante / DC Training

MaconiDDS

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1.) Dante has mentioned "getting weird with it" quite a lot in recent years, and how he strongly believes exercise selection choosing the most mechanically stimulating positions for each muscle growth is critical, far more than doing more volume. I agree that all the high volume in the world isn't going to do much if you've been lifting intensely for 10+ years. Can we get some examples of "getting weird with it" for different muscle groups? If someone has lagging calves, biceps, etc they're such basic movements it's hard to imagine too many variations that will change much if they're lagging. That is where I think things like higher frequency and volume may play a role.

Even for something like back though (probably the muscle group most amenable to variations) once you've got a pull up variation, 2 row variations (say a BB row and a cable row), and deadlift variation and you've pushed those to the max year after year and gotten damn strong on them, how much more are you going to get from new unknown variations?

2.) Dante has given the examples of guys like Jay Cutler forgetting that what got them huge was lifting heavy slag iron and getting dramatically stronger. That when one first starts lifting the dumbbells go up from 50s to 60s to 70s to 80s to 90s, then when they start steroids they go from 315 squats to 405 squats to 495 squats etc and they seem to forget that these periods of crazy strength gain are what got them bigger.

But what if it is the opposite order? You are responsive to the new training (or new steroids) and so you grow a ton, and because you gained a lot of muscle from the noob training / steroids you are now able to lift much heavier weights. There's quite a bit of evidence now to suggest you get stronger as a result of getting bigger, not the other way around.

I'm in no way denying the strength and size correlation. I think it's massively important. When I've gotten bigger I've gotten stronger, and if I went a year gaining no net strength I got no bigger. But it's not like you can just force the adaptation of gaining strength. You should absolutely be trying to add strength, but I think some would argue their other methods (higher volume for example, periodization, increased frequency, etc.) will work to increase muscle mass and that will in turn result in more strength.

It's like, "if you just got faster at sprints you could be a decent sprinter"....well yes, but how do you get that increased speed? It's not actually from sprinting all of the time. It's 90% genetics and consistency, and then proper training which actually doesn't involve a ton of sprinting relatively speaking.

Ken Skip Hill has said this about Kai Greene and deadlifts years ago. Does he have a massive back because he deadlifts a ton of weight....or did he have amazing back genetics and that allows him to deadlift a lot? Almost certainly the latter.

Anyway, just looking for some good discussion here :)
 

heavyhitter

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Dante has made several posts regarding these things over the years.
1. Getting weird with it. Exercises like dante rows, pec deck push presses, walking on a steep incline while leaning over the screen of the treadmill for calf development, high incline wide grip smith presses to the lower pecs, rack deads, sumo leg presses, widowmakers on leg press, widomakers on pec deck push press and curl machines. Bent over rows on the seated cable row machine like dusty hanshaw does them, rack pulls(made more difference to my lats than any other exercise)He's posted tons of unique exercises
2. You mentioned Jay cutler. Well what did Cutler do when he finally decided he needed to beat Ronnie? He went back to super heavy basic training and came in bigger than ever. And Dante does recommend periodization with DC ala cruise periods. And DC is definitely high frequency.
 

danieltx

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On 'getting weird with it' - it's really hard to discuss this stuff without pictures and videos to show what we're actually doing. I wish guys here could see my workouts because I'm a prime example of it. I'm 6' with long arms and legs so I've had to make big adjustments to maximize hypertrophy.

For example, for back, I don't do pullups, barbell rows, dumbbell rows, or any pulldowns or row variations on cable-pulley stacks. My favorite movements are Smith machine rack deadlifts, unilateral Hammer Strength low rows, and unlitaral pulldowns kneeling on the ground using a Free Motion double stack. I just feel those movements in the musculature of my back way more than the traditional stuff.

The biggest reason guys don't make progress in bodybuilding is they train MOVEMENTS, not MUSCLES. They get brainwashed into the idea that you must barbell squat / bench / deadlift, do pullups, close grip bench is the best triceps builder, all sorts of dogmatic bullshit. Regarding dumbbell shoulder presses, I once had a guy tell me, 'I can't feel them in my shoulders at all, but I know you're supposed to do them so just trust that they're working.' That's a person who will NEVER gain any significant amount of muscle.

Do whatever weird movement, crazy ROM, wacky thing a machine isn't totally designed for that you like. As long as you feel the muscle squeeze and stretch throughout the movement, you'll make gains. The muscle only knows how hard it's working, not what tool it's working with.
 

MaconiDDS

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Dante has made several posts regarding these things over the years.
1. Getting weird with it. Exercises like dante rows, pec deck push presses, walking on a steep incline while leaning over the screen of the treadmill for calf development, high incline wide grip smith presses to the lower pecs, rack deads, sumo leg presses, widowmakers on leg press, widomakers on pec deck push press and curl machines. Bent over rows on the seated cable row machine like dusty hanshaw does them, rack pulls(made more difference to my lats than any other exercise)He's posted tons of unique exercises
2. You mentioned Jay cutler. Well what did Cutler do when he finally decided he needed to beat Ronnie? He went back to super heavy basic training and came in bigger than ever. And Dante does recommend periodization with DC ala cruise periods. And DC is definitely high frequency.

I've not heard of some of those exercises you mentioned, I'll search for them. I did the steep incline walking for months to no avail, but I think my calves are unusually stubborn. I've also done the traditional DC method for calves (15-5-X-1 tempo) again to no avail. No size increase in my calves since high school lol despite 60lb of weight gain. Big fan of widowmakers.

Regarding Cutler, I only mentioned him because that's the example Dante has given a few times. I'm not particularly familiar with Jay's training through his career so I'll have to take your word for it that what got him to beat Ronnie was going back to super heavy basic training, but I've never heard that before. In fact he recently said in an interview he never trained to failure. But that might just be another example of what Dante said where the person forgets what got them their size.
 

MaconiDDS

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On 'getting weird with it' - it's really hard to discuss this stuff without pictures and videos to show what we're actually doing. I wish guys here could see my workouts because I'm a prime example of it. I'm 6' with long arms and legs so I've had to make big adjustments to maximize hypertrophy.

For example, for back, I don't do pullups, barbell rows, dumbbell rows, or any pulldowns or row variations on cable-pulley stacks. My favorite movements are Smith machine rack deadlifts, unilateral Hammer Strength low rows, and unlitaral pulldowns kneeling on the ground using a Free Motion double stack. I just feel those movements in the musculature of my back way more than the traditional stuff.

The biggest reason guys don't make progress in bodybuilding is they train MOVEMENTS, not MUSCLES. They get brainwashed into the idea that you must barbell squat / bench / deadlift, do pullups, close grip bench is the best triceps builder, all sorts of dogmatic bullshit. Regarding dumbbell shoulder presses, I once had a guy tell me, 'I can't feel them in my shoulders at all, but I know you're supposed to do them so just trust that they're working.' That's a person who will NEVER gain any significant amount of muscle.

Do whatever weird movement, crazy ROM, wacky thing a machine isn't totally designed for that you like. As long as you feel the muscle squeeze and stretch throughout the movement, you'll make gains. The muscle only knows how hard it's working, not what tool it's working with.

Interesting, I too am just over 6ft with long limbs but back has always been my best body part and responded to the traditional lifts.

Any reason you like smith rack pulls over regular rack pulls? That's not one I see done almost ever.
 

heavyhitter

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I've not heard of some of those exercises you mentioned, I'll search for them. I did the steep incline walking for months to no avail, but I think my calves are unusually stubborn. I've also done the traditional DC method for calves (15-5-X-1 tempo) again to no avail. No size increase in my calves since high school lol despite 60lb of weight gain. Big fan of widowmakers.

Regarding Cutler, I only mentioned him because that's the example Dante has given a few times. I'm not particularly familiar with Jay's training through his career so I'll have to take your word for it that what got him to beat Ronnie was going back to super heavy basic training, but I've never heard that before. In fact he recently said in an interview he never trained to failure. But that might just be another example of what Dante said where the person forgets what got them their size.
One big thing for calves i picked up from john meadows that has really helped is training tibialis. i still train calves dc style, but i superset them with banded tib raises for several set of 25 or so reps. You should be able to find videos of any of those exercises. if not i'd be happy to describe them to you. I also accidentally mentioned rack pulls, while these are a fantastic exercise i actually meant to post rack chins. no exercise has made a bigger difference in my back development than these
 

danieltx

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Interesting, I too am just over 6ft with long limbs but back has always been my best body part and responded to the traditional lifts.

Any reason you like smith rack pulls over regular rack pulls? That's not one I see done almost ever.

The Smith just lets me isolate my back muscles better. Theoretically it shouldn't be much different than pulling with a barbell in a rack, but when I actually do it it's a world of difference. I prefer Flex Fit Smith machines which move at a slight angle, not straight up and down, so that might play a part. I always pull overhand from just above knees. Honestly, Smith rack deadlifts have been the best mass builder for my back, ever. It's made crazy progress the last 2-3 years.
 

heavyhitter

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Theres a thread on intensemuscle called "sometimes for back thickness" if its still there where dante details numerous interesting exercises. Like dead stop skull crushers, the different way that he does reverse grip smith presses, and tons of others
 

USMuscle9403

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Yes, honestly, I'd start looking over at IntenseMuscle, that's where the majority of Dante's gold is. Lots of stickies with new recommendations for DC training over the years. LOTS of information to digest, but hell, you're a doctor, so you're used to it :)
 

USMuscle9403

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I like how you never mention who you are!

He's Brains and Gains on YouTube, guys. He has a good channel, so subscribe. Now.
 

heavyhitter

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Even for something like back though (probably the muscle group most amenable to variations) once you've got a pull up variation, 2 row variations (say a BB row and a cable row), and deadlift variation and you've pushed those to the max year after year and gotten damn strong on them, how much more are you going to get from new unknown variations?
And in answer to this, its not quite that simple. On a dc 2 way split your going to have 3 back width movements and 3 back thickness movements. Youll rotate these each workout trying for constant progression. When you stall on that exercise(which you will eventually) you rotate in a new exercise and continue to progress with that one. The overall idea being constant progressive overload. You will always be getting stronger at something with each bodypart. If you're constantly getting stronger and constantl eating to meet those needs.....it stands to reason that you'll likely become larger as well
 

MaconiDDS

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One big thing for calves i picked up from john meadows that has really helped is training tibialis. i still train calves dc style, but i superset them with banded tib raises for several set of 25 or so reps. You should be able to find videos of any of those exercises. if not i'd be happy to describe them to you. I also accidentally mentioned rack pulls, while these are a fantastic exercise i actually meant to post rack chins. no exercise has made a bigger difference in my back development than these

I've tried Meadows' method for calves as well. No results. Trust me haha I don't want to derail this thread and make it about my calves but over 15 years I've tried everything under the sun for them and they haven't budged. I've then not trained them for half a year....no change. Every specialization you can imagine I've done. I've accepted it lol.

I'm a fan of rack chins, did them for many years. At some point for some reason they began to cause a twinge in my spine so I stopped, but they're a great exercise.

The Smith just lets me isolate my back muscles better. Theoretically it shouldn't be much different than pulling with a barbell in a rack, but when I actually do it it's a world of difference. I prefer Flex Fit Smith machines which move at a slight angle, not straight up and down, so that might play a part. I always pull overhand from just above knees. Honestly, Smith rack deadlifts have been the best mass builder for my back, ever. It's made crazy progress the last 2-3 years.

I assume you stand so the angle is towards you and the weight gradually gets closer to your body. Just out of curiosity, what kind of weights are you pulling on that? I've seen people go crazy heavy on rack deads.


Yes, honestly, I'd start looking over at IntenseMuscle, that's where the majority of Dante's gold is. Lots of stickies with new recommendations for DC training over the years. LOTS of information to digest, but hell, you're a doctor, so you're used to it :)

Oh I'm very familiar with Dante and DC, intense muscle, Skip, Scott Stevenson, etc. I kind of just wanted to hear his specific thoughts on my 2nd question and maybe some more examples of "getting weird with it" exercises. I've said for my entire training career if you're not getting stronger in moderate rep ranges you're likely not getting bigger (at least as a natural).

I like how you never mention who you are!

He's Brains and Gains on YouTube, guys. He has a good channel, so subscribe. Now.

Hah thanks man, glad you enjoy the content :)

Even for something like back though (probably the muscle group most amenable to variations) once you've got a pull up variation, 2 row variations (say a BB row and a cable row), and deadlift variation and you've pushed those to the max year after year and gotten damn strong on them, how much more are you going to get from new unknown variations?
And in answer to this, its not quite that simple. On a dc 2 way split your going to have 3 back width movements and 3 back thickness movements. Youll rotate these each workout trying for constant progression. When you stall on that exercise(which you will eventually) you rotate in a new exercise and continue to progress with that one. The overall idea being constant progressive overload. You will always be getting stronger at something with each bodypart. If you're constantly getting stronger and constantl eating to meet those needs.....it stands to reason that you'll likely become larger as well

Yup :) maybe I should have clarified in my original post I'm very familiar with how DC is set up. I just wanted to hear DCs thoughts on those specific questions. I know you change out exercises often, which is in part why I'm wondering how "weird with it" you can really get. By the time you've got 3 back width and 3 back thickness exercises, and you're getting strong as hell on them until you stall out, it's hard to imagine you wouldn't get most of your size.I guess I just personally have never found any "weird" exercises to work so much better for me than others.

And probably my bigger question / point was #2 regarding the strength. He mentions those two periods when people gain the most strength as if that is what caused them to gain the muscle....I (and many including Brad Schoenfeld who I now Dante respects) would argue those are periods where you are getting massive amounts of hypertrophy and it is because of that hypertrophy you are getting so much stronger. Chicken vs egg.
 

danieltx

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I assume you stand so the angle is towards you and the weight gradually gets closer to your body. Just out of curiosity, what kind of weights are you pulling on that? I've seen people go crazy heavy on rack deads.

Correct, pulling at angle towards myself.

At peak of my last offseason I was doing working sets in the 400s for 8-10 reps, maxing out around 500 for 10.
 

jeroendebleser

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On 'getting weird with it' - it's really hard to discuss this stuff without pictures and videos to show what we're actually doing. I wish guys here could see my workouts because I'm a prime example of it. I'm 6' with long arms and legs so I've had to make big adjustments to maximize hypertrophy.

For example, for back, I don't do pullups, barbell rows, dumbbell rows, or any pulldowns or row variations on cable-pulley stacks. My favorite movements are Smith machine rack deadlifts, unilateral Hammer Strength low rows, and unlitaral pulldowns kneeling on the ground using a Free Motion double stack. I just feel those movements in the musculature of my back way more than the traditional stuff.

The biggest reason guys don't make progress in bodybuilding is they train MOVEMENTS, not MUSCLES. They get brainwashed into the idea that you must barbell squat / bench / deadlift, do pullups, close grip bench is the best triceps builder, all sorts of dogmatic bullshit. Regarding dumbbell shoulder presses, I once had a guy tell me, 'I can't feel them in my shoulders at all, but I know you're supposed to do them so just trust that they're working.' That's a person who will NEVER gain any significant amount of muscle.

Do whatever weird movement, crazy ROM, wacky thing a machine isn't totally designed for that you like. As long as you feel the muscle squeeze and stretch throughout the movement, you'll make gains. The muscle only knows how hard it's working, not what tool it's working with.

Exactly what I always tell people as well. Who cares if it looks weird or if you 'shouldn't' be doing it, if it works for you, it works for YOU.

I'm even quite a bit taller than you so I'm often seen half-repping things or doing some funky looking execution (or at least it looks like that from the outside) but I do what I gotta do.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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IM going to put asterisks in front of my answers ok

1.) Dante has mentioned "getting weird with it" quite a lot in recent years, and how he strongly believes exercise selection choosing the most mechanically stimulating positions for each muscle growth is critical, far more than doing more volume. I agree that all the high volume in the world isn't going to do much if you've been lifting intensely for 10+ years. Can we get some examples of "getting weird with it" for different muscle groups? If someone has lagging calves, biceps, etc they're such basic movements it's hard to imagine too many variations that will change much if they're lagging. That is where I think things like higher frequency and volume may play a role.

****Getting weird with it....biceps...if someone doesnt have biceps that respond they usually have to do 2-3 things....1) every curl either needs to do this (back of arm supported) or (allow elbows to travel backwards and dont curl out in front of you but curl into your armpit) and thirdly one of the best things someone could do is almost change everything they do over to hammer curls...especially hammer curls that allow elbows to travel backwards or are arm supported like the above....ill give you some examples....
a) rest pause 20-30 rep standing hammers (alternating) but do not curl out in front of you...let your elbow travel backwards and try to force your hand into your armpit...the top of the dumbell should hit your front deltoid.......or seated incline hammer curls with allowing elbows to drift backwards and curling into armpit....do hammer curls with a thumbless grip which makes you squeeze the dumbell even harder)....things like that.....if you could ever locate this flex fitness bicep curl you would change your biceps in a year of using that.....because your upper arm is stabilized and doing it one arm at a time strict for higher reps and heavy weights is a whole different animal than pretty much any other machine. Any bicep exercise where your arm is stabilized or flexunnamed.jpg pulled somewhat behind you is worthy if you have been lifting for a long time and have minimal results for biceps.....that takes a little ingenuity and knowledge of your gym machinery but it really is thinking out what is available in your gym and "getting weird with it"

Even for something like back though (probably the muscle group most amenable to variations) once you've got a pull up variation, 2 row variations (say a BB row and a cable row), and deadlift variation and you've pushed those to the max year after year and gotten damn strong on them, how much more are you going to get from new unknown variations?

***alot --- your job is to think outside the box....i seriously have about 20-30 goto exercises i can use at any time that ive developed over the years. Sometimes the very best thing any person could ever do is go to a new gym because that new gym has slightly different angles / machines / leverages /mechanics and all you have to do is get progressive with those mechanical positions you have never been in before and you will grow. There is no way in hell that you have used every single machine out there that has been made...they all have their angles and nuances. I must do things much differently than everyone else because i study the apparatus's and think "can i do that one handed?" What happens if i reverse my position on that (such as shoulder presses and lateral machines), What happens if i go into a deep stretch with this and hold it for 2-5 seconds before pulling.....its your job while driving to work or right before going to sleep at night to think about machinery in your gym and how you can mold it or use it .... like i said go to another gym...make the trip and use totally different equipment than you have ever used before and i bet you might be sore in places you havent been for awhile. I have never used a Yates Pullover machine for lats before in my life before last year....i went right up the ladder and maxed the weight stack on that thing over about 6 months....and i had a different look and its because i put myself in a position that i was never in before....your job is to develop and find those positions

2.) Dante has given the examples of guys like Jay Cutler forgetting that what got them huge was lifting heavy slag iron and getting dramatically stronger. That when one first starts lifting the dumbbells go up from 50s to 60s to 70s to 80s to 90s, then when they start steroids they go from 315 squats to 405 squats to 495 squats etc and they seem to forget that these periods of crazy strength gain are what got them bigger.

But what if it is the opposite order? You are responsive to the new training (or new steroids) and so you grow a ton, and because you gained a lot of muscle from the noob training / steroids you are now able to lift much heavier weights. There's quite a bit of evidence now to suggest you get stronger as a result of getting bigger, not the other way around.

**** I dont know if the powerlifting community would wholly agree with that

I'm in no way denying the strength and size correlation. I think it's massively important. When I've gotten bigger I've gotten stronger, and if I went a year gaining no net strength I got no bigger. But it's not like you can just force the adaptation of gaining strength. You should absolutely be trying to add strength, but I think some would argue their other methods (higher volume for example, periodization, increased frequency, etc.) will work to increase muscle mass and that will in turn result in more strength.

**** i really dont know who you could pinpoint more on increasing frequency in bodybuilding then myself because when i came forward with that in the 90's i met with a boatload of backlash like no tomorrow....like i was spitting on peoples bibles of training.

It's like, "if you just got faster at sprints you could be a decent sprinter"....well yes, but how do you get that increased speed? It's not actually from sprinting all of the time. It's 90% genetics and consistency, and then proper training which actually doesn't involve a ton of sprinting relatively speaking.

Ken Skip Hill has said this about Kai Greene and deadlifts years ago. Does he have a massive back because he deadlifts a ton of weight....or did he have amazing back genetics and that allows him to deadlift a lot? Almost certainly the latter.

****Genetics overrule everything but if you want to stay in that box then people would just give up and quit who had bad genetics.....Dusty Hanshaw had a very mediocre back when I first saw him....he just bulldozed his way to an incredible back thru sheer weight, willpower and determination......

Anyway, just looking for some good discussion here :)
 

DOGGCRAPP

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I've not heard of some of those exercises you mentioned, I'll search for them. I did the steep incline walking for months to no avail, but I think my calves are unusually stubborn. I've also done the traditional DC method for calves (15-5-X-1 tempo) again to no avail. No size increase in my calves since high school lol despite 60lb of weight gain. Big fan of widowmakers.

Regarding Cutler, I only mentioned him because that's the example Dante has given a few times. I'm not particularly familiar with Jay's training through his career so I'll have to take your word for it that what got him to beat Ronnie was going back to super heavy basic training, but I've never heard that before. In fact he recently said in an interview he never trained to failure. But that might just be another example of what Dante said where the person forgets what got them their size.

Calves are the hardest bodypart to change if you dont have the genetics for great calves....it is what it is. If i was you i would be doing 50 rep calf presses on the 45 degree leg press machine taking 5 second breaks on the way to 50 reps whenever it gets so excruciating (dont put the weight down just shift your feet up on the plate take your 5 deep breaths and then get back at it) all the way to 50.....things like that....you got to get outside the box and do crazy stuff if you have been lifting for a long time and arent making changes. Find the exercises that feel like they are going to work and again just get weird with it.

As far as Cutler he developed almost all his size before the age of 24 and he used to lift monstrous poundages back in the day...the guy was competing in the 256lb range in his early 20's.....the exact same time frame when this was being done https://www.musculardevelopment.com...yparts-muscular-development.html#.XvPo_1VKiUk
is that the best way to go about it safely? probably not but thats what he did and thats the time period he gained the most muscle mass by far in his career.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Yup :) maybe I should have clarified in my original post I'm very familiar with how DC is set up. I just wanted to hear DCs thoughts on those specific questions. I know you change out exercises often, which is in part why I'm wondering how "weird with it" you can really get. By the time you've got 3 back width and 3 back thickness exercises, and you're getting strong as hell on them until you stall out, it's hard to imagine you wouldn't get most of your size.I guess I just personally have never found any "weird" exercises to work so much better for me than others.

I like advanced guys to do that http://instagr.am/p/BuFjRBQniJv/ because i feel everyone in the beginning needs size and the best way to do that is do the way heavy hitter and others have described but when someone gets more advanced there comes a time you can train your strong bodyparts once a week and still gain and your weak bodyparts 2x (one full and one not) a week and gain.

I could come into your gym and in one week i would show you about 10-15 variations of exercises that you have not thought of before....because i just have a mind like that...i see an exercise or a machine and i take it apart and think how i can get everything out of how it pulls down or presses...where i should be set up, and just the mechanics of it. I know this because i do this at every gym i go to and training partners and friends always say "how the hell did you come up with this"...and its just simply I take note of every single apparatus in the gym and what i can do with it....I do this almost every night when im falling asleep. Sometimes i go in and try it out and its a 100% certifiable disaster and wont work....sometimes i go in and "Boom" it is awesome and works exactly like i thought it would. Do you know you can do about the greatest fixed lateral raise there is on one of the hammer strength chest press machines? Its a fact. Thats how you got to get your mind working
 

heavyhitter

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Well there it is from the man himself. Dante, some of those quirks to standard exercises have made the biggest differences in my growth. I always had such a hard time growing biceps until I started training them the way you say and now they’re a strong point for a guy with arms as long as mine
 

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I like advanced guys to do that http://instagr.am/p/BuFjRBQniJv/ because i feel everyone in the beginning needs size and the best way to do that is do the way heavy hitter and others have described but when someone gets more advanced there comes a time you can train your strong bodyparts once a week and still gain and your weak bodyparts 2x (one full and one not) a week and gain.

I could come into your gym and in one week i would show you about 10-15 variations of exercises that you have not thought of before....because i just have a mind like that...i see an exercise or a machine and i take it apart and think how i can get everything out of how it pulls down or presses...where i should be set up, and just the mechanics of it. I know this because i do this at every gym i go to and training partners and friends always say "how the hell did you come up with this"...and its just simply I take note of every single apparatus in the gym and what i can do with it....I do this almost every night when im falling asleep. Sometimes i go in and try it out and its a 100% certifiable disaster and wont work....sometimes i go in and "Boom" it is awesome and works exactly like i thought it would. Do you know you can do about the greatest fixed lateral raise there is on one of the hammer strength chest press machines? Its a fact. Thats how you got to get your mind working

Has there ever been a bench mark for strength/size (weight?) where you would consider someone to be "advanced"?

Or did you always base that off the look of a physique?
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Has there ever been a bench mark for strength/size (weight?) where you would consider someone to be "advanced"?

Or did you always base that off the look of a physique?

I kind of leave that up to the individual.....I think most people can look at theirselves and say "i look like a bodybuilder and these are my exceptionally strong bodyparts and these are my weaker bodyparts" .....and if thats the thought process....."its time to go to town on those weak bodyparts"
 

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