Exercise Science is Killing Your Gains

[Oldwhitedude]

As most mainstream people or even those interested in performance improvements, are not educated in reading studies and understanding them. It takes a long time to decipher what they may mean. And for better or worse waiting till things are out there and vetted by experts and those that actually do the work it takes time to find things out.. And science moves on in the meantime. I am one of those that looks at the introduction then the conclusion and the stuff in between is not well understood much of the time. So without simply written conclusions the studies are less then beneficial for most.

Yeah I think that's fair.

My only thought to that though is do we really need science to tell us how to train at this point? I'd say we don't.

People know how to get big. The knowledge is there. Jeez look at some of the lads on this board like Luki and a few others. What's the latest study going to add to our body of practical knowledge on training.

I'd say it'll add nothing.

My problem with it is that it's a distraction. Let's say you're 35 and you started lifting at 20, well that's the very best years of your lifting and if you were mislead by these science guys from one thing to another that's a hell of a waste of time.

 

[buck]

Yeah I think that's fair.

My only thought to that though is do we really need science to tell us how to train at this point? I'd say we don't.

People know how to get big. The knowledge is there. Jeez look at some of the lads on this board like Luki and a few others. What's the latest study going to add to our body of practical knowledge on training.

I'd say it'll add nothing.

My problem with it is that it's a distraction. Let's say you're 35 and you started lifting at 20, well that's the very best years of your lifting and if you were mislead by these science guys from one thing to another that's a hell of a waste of time.

That vast majority don't need science as i see it. The basics have worked forever. No need for new exercises other then to combat boredom for most people. As they will never get close to their potential. But what is optimal amd will get you there the fastest is where the science comes in i think. I probably didn't need to kill myself every set the way i did and could have still got to where i was but who knew! I am older than most. So i look towards science to see how i can regress the slowest. Not much data out there on that.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

That vast majority don't need science as i see it. The basics have worked forever. No need for new exercises other then to combat boredom for most people. As they will never get close to their potential. But what is optimal is where the science comes in i think. I am older than most. So i look towards science to see how i can regress the slowest. Not much data out there on that.

Yeah and that could be a thread by itself. I know I'd have plenty to say.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Good god...it seems like every big name not named John Meadows is so defensive, angry, long winded...but Lyle while brilliant is as annoying as Israetel and doucette. Quality content but I couldn't tolerate him had to scroll to the end to get take home point. So essentially he says only 2 studies...done by scholfield...say super high volume is best? He also speculating it's fluid swelling not growth and also questions scholfields intentions?

You scrolled through the whole video, and then question what he had in the video? Come on man. Watch the damn video and see what he says....annoying or not.

The beef he's had with brad is that him and a bunch of the guys he circle jerks with never call each other out on stuff. Brad has done sloppy studies, and yet 'his crew' never calls him out on it. Brad is not a dumb guy, but those same guys, who are also smart, do not call him out like they do every other person on the internet when something is off. I'm not going to put words into Lyle's mouth though, he states it all on the video, as well as other ones he's done in the past. Yes, "Lyle is mean," but the guy is legit and makes good points. All these guys were cool with Lyle until he called them out on stuff years back, and then they all cried like little girls like, "how could you Lyle." He's not the only one who has voiced his opinion on this, the study he is citing did the same, as well as a few others.

 

[qbkilla]

You scrolled through the whole video, and then question what he had in the video? Come on man. Watch the damn video and see what he says....annoying or not.

The beef he's had with brad is that him and a bunch of the guys he circle jerks with never call each other out on stuff. Brad has done sloppy studies, and yet 'his crew' never calls him out on it. Brad is not a dumb guy, but those same guys, who are also smart, do not call him out like they do every other person on the internet when something is off. I'm not going to put words into Lyle's mouth though, he states it all on the video, as well as other ones he's done in the past. Yes, "Lyle is mean," but the guy is legit and makes good points. All these guys were cool with Lyle until he called them out on stuff years back, and then they all cried like little girls like, "how could you Lyle." He's not the only one who has voiced his opinion on this, the study he is citing did the same, as well as a few others.

Interesting thank you. I tried to watch him as I try to watch Mike van wyck...but if they are just getting on your nerves.... promoting themselves, talking shit, being sarcastic/funny or trying, just can't stand when something that could be stated in 4 minutes lasts 20+ with alll the exta

 

[MR. BMJ]

Interesting thank you. I tried to watch him as I try to watch Mike van wyck...but if they are just getting on your nerves.... promoting themselves, talking shit, being sarcastic/funny or trying, just can't stand when something that could be stated in 4 minutes lasts 20+ with alll the exta

He's usually pretty quick on his videos explaining stuff, he dislikes other people for the same thing you mentioned, or rather people who take hours to explain something that takes minutes. He does this a lot with guys like Huberman, who can take hours to explain and theorize stuff. I think he took his time on this one because he was trying to explain all points of the study he was referencing, and also, if he stated something out of context, then many would have just discounted what he was saying, so he was covering all points that needed to be addressed. Not saying he has never put out long videos either, but he usually gives a tl;dr disclaimer, lol.

For Lyle, he is definitely an acquired taste depending on what mood you are in. I'm pretty used to him though since i've followed him since the 90's, haha. He can come off very abrasive, and it definitely turns people off, but his actual content and message(s) are usually spot on. He will admit when he is wrong too. He's addressed his bi-polar issues that he has battled as well. But yea, he is a unique guy where you either want to listen to him or shut him off.

 

[Alan1]

For those who have entirely lost faith in the current batch of hypertrophy research celebrities like Schoenfeld et al (as I have), there is still good science being done. It's just not as widely advertised.

And another:

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

And another:

Around 2:30 he talks about one of the studies, and what they did for their leg sessions:

8 x 8-10 Squats, 60 Seconds rest between sets
8 x 8-10 Leg Extensions, 60 seconds rest

I'm with Lyle on this. I want to see the fucking recorded workouts of the study.

 

[marssel]

Not watched the video but yeah he's not wrong.

Hypertrophy science over the last 10 years has mislead a LOT of people, while simultaneously making the general population very sceptical about real sources of good information like actual bodybuilders and bodybuilding coaches.

Probably a little unfair to put Lyle on the cover there as he keeps his feet on the ground, but the rest are a mess. An absolute mess.

Same here didn’t watch but have seen these guys, all these guys going thru the gym obsessed with notebooks, the gym is fun, train hard as fuck chase the pain chase the pump and let the mirror tell you what’s really going on.

 

[qbkilla]

Same here didn’t watch but have seen these guys, all these guys going thru the gym obsessed with notebooks, the gym is fun, train hard as fuck chase the pain chase the pump and let the mirror tell you what’s really going on.

I'm starting to adopt and like this approach. Come in each day hit a push, a pull, a legs, and an accessory. Some structure but mostly have freedom. Makes sessions more fun which makes it easier to really get after it

 

[marssel]

I'm starting to adopt and like this approach. Come in each day hit a push, a pull, a legs, and an accessory. Some structure but mostly have freedom. Makes sessions more fun which makes it easier to really get after it

Yea the more fun I have chasing a pump/look in the mirror the harder I go in general. No substitution for pure energy, sure weak body parts need structure and all heads need to be hit but that can be done having fun. Especially near a show when you’re miserable or just dieted down hard and aren’t moving as heavy weights as usual, a blistering pump is great for mind and body

 

[qbkilla]

Yea the more fun I have chasing a pump/look in the mirror the harder I go in general. No substitution for pure energy, sure weak body parts need structure and all heads need to be hit but that can be done having fun. Especially near a show when you’re miserable or just dieted down hard and aren’t moving as heavy weights as usual, a blistering pump is great for mind and body

Yup. I'm not big into bodybuilding per se but love reading articles or threads where someone talks about training with some old timer who does some crazy intense volume and at the end they almost puked. Now days 20 people half their size would scream "overtraining, big dummy!"

 

[marssel]

Yup. I'm not big into bodybuilding per se but love reading articles or threads where someone talks about training with some old timer who does some crazy intense volume and at the end they almost puked. Now days 20 people half their size would scream "overtraining, big dummy!"

Yea when I was coming up the saying was “there’s no such thing as over training just under eating.

 

[IntenseVolume]

exercise science is far from a settled science there’s really no such thing as a settled science but exercise science is really far from a singular conclusion. it’s not useless though. I’d say the misuse and misunderstanding of the limitations leading to being dogmatic is the issue imo.

not the biggest fan of Isratel but he explained best with
”Sports science is composed of studies that can at best be described as hypothesis generating



When they find something you don’t take it and run to the bank with it and instantly start to train with whatever number of sets they said or whatever load they said you take that study and you integrate it into your applied practice where you use personal anecdote as well as experience with others as well as theory of physiology in order to form the properly best approach you can at the time

The whole triad is called evidence based practice

Direct evidence, theoretical rationale and personal experience and practical experience “

 

[madg]

Yea when I was coming up the saying was “there’s no such thing as over training just under eating.

Same hete brother

20 sets per muscle group
2 tmes per week

That what i was taught 40 sets per week per bp

 

[Golden]

Same hete brother

20 sets per muscle group
2 tmes per week

That what i was taught 40 sets per week per bp

Really old gym I started out at was the same.

20 sets per body part and only enough rest for your training partner to do his set and then you were back on. All the bigger fellas would train 6 days per week pretty much.

As the Dorian era came in, a lot tried to adapt to his style with mixed success but definitely more injuries. Lol

 

[JJT]

Same hete brother

20 sets per muscle group
2 tmes per week

That what i was taught 40 sets per week per bp

Really interesting! Is that how you made your best gains? What would a workout look like?

 

[marssel]

Really old gym I started out at was the same.

20 sets per body part and only enough rest for your training partner to do his set and then you were back on. All the bigger fellas would train 6 days per week pretty much.

As the Dorian era came in, a lot tried to adapt to his style with mixed success but definitely more injuries. Lol

Yea I came in the 20 sets base guys and still rock that and I love it. Dorian’s 1 set method worked for him but can you imagine if Dorian trained like say Branch? I think he woukda been 30 lbs heavier

 

[IntenseVolume]

i don’t really set out to do x amount of sets and I don’t think reps matter all that much Up to a point. I do take all my sets close to failure to the point to where I can’t complete another rep with good form.
i was looking over my last chest/shoulder day and not counting drop sets on one movement I had 24 working sets.

when I was younger and healthier I trained low to moderate volume where my focus was the progressive overload and beating the logbook.

 

[Alan1]

exercise science is far from a settled science there’s really no such thing as a settled science but exercise science is really far from a singular conclusion. it’s not useless though. I’d say the misuse and misunderstanding of the limitations leading to being dogmatic is the issue imo.

not the biggest fan of Isratel but he explained best with
”Sports science is composed of studies that can at best be described as hypothesis generating



When they find something you don’t take it and run to the bank with it and instantly start to train with whatever number of sets they said or whatever load they said you take that study and you integrate it into your applied practice where you use personal anecdote as well as experience with others as well as theory of physiology in order to form the properly best approach you can at the time

The whole triad is called evidence based practice

Direct evidence, theoretical rationale and personal experience and practical experience “

Well said. Came across this IronCulture podcast today and thought it was a good listen as they talk a lot about the history of sport/lifting science, limitations, what it's NOT meant for, practical applications and opportunities within the field, (and stuff you touched in above) etc.