HGH taken at 11 PM significantly higher nitrogen retention than 8 AM (Study)

[blackjack]

Muscles are made during recovery, so i wouldn't worry too much about timing orals. However, you can experiment with pre work out and see if it works for you as some people feel they get a benefit. It could be placebo effect (which can be as powerful as an AAS) but AAS do have "non-genomic" effects, these are rapid effects which kick in right away and only when levels are elevated, so its not impossible.

The muscle building effect of AAS is a genomic effect which is why it takes a few weeks to see it, so generally, timing orals and injectables should not have a significant effect on gains.


As for HGH timing, FFA (FREE FATTY ACIDS) seem to peak about 4 hours after SQ administration (so likely 3 hours for IM injection). The question is, do we wait for that 4 hour peak then burn it off with cardio or does doing cardio in that 4 hour window release extra FFA anyways. I would go with the latter; 30 to 60 minutes after GH to start cardio in a fasted state should be sufficient, but end of the day consistent caloric deficit or maintenance is the key.


Personally, i don't nit pick or focus too much on these finer details myself but it is fun to think about. HGH seems to also work by making fat cells resistant to absorbing calories/glucose/etc (partially via insulin resistance mechanism) ie turning on lipolysis and turning off lipogenesis. It also increases the metabolic rate and Free T3 production. This explains why a lot people in their teen years can just binge on food and not gain significant amounts of fat.

Great perspective on a lot of shit lately

 

[qbkilla]

Muscles are made during recovery, so i wouldn't worry too much about timing orals. However, you can experiment with pre work out and see if it works for you as some people feel they get a benefit. It could be placebo effect (which can be as powerful as an AAS) but AAS do have "non-genomic" effects, these are rapid effects which kick in right away and only when levels are elevated, so its not impossible.

The muscle building effect of AAS is a genomic effect which is why it takes a few weeks to see it, so generally, timing orals and injectables should not have a significant effect on gains.


As for HGH timing, FFA (FREE FATTY ACIDS) seem to peak about 4 hours after SQ administration (so likely 3 hours for IM injection). The question is, do we wait for that 4 hour peak then burn it off with cardio or does doing cardio in that 4 hour window release extra FFA anyways. I would go with the latter; 30 to 60 minutes after GH to start cardio in a fasted state should be sufficient, but end of the day consistent caloric deficit or maintenance is the key.


Personally, i don't nit pick or focus too much on these finer details myself but it is fun to think about. HGH seems to also work by making fat cells resistant to absorbing calories/glucose/etc (partially via insulin resistance mechanism) ie turning on lipolysis and turning off lipogenesis. It also increases the metabolic rate and Free T3 production. This explains why a lot people in their teen years can just binge on food and not gain significant amounts of fat.

Awesome info thank you. The mention of binging reminds me of some of the science/bro science of the early 2000s. Lyle McDonald and some guy named par Deus pushing supplements to increase leptin. Essentially if you have been dieting a long time, you can have a high carb "refeed" aka binge and as long as it's carb based and low fat, those calories will boost your leptin/metabolism and not get stored as fat or eliminate your weekly deficit. Supposedly even more efficient in lean folks with low leptin.

 

[Black Beard]

Awesome info thank you. The mention of binging reminds me of some of the science/bro science of the early 2000s. Lyle McDonald and some guy named par Deus pushing supplements to increase leptin. Essentially if you have been dieting a long time, you can have a high carb "refeed" aka binge and as long as it's carb based and low fat, those calories will boost your leptin/metabolism and not get stored as fat or eliminate your weekly deficit. Supposedly even more efficient in lean folks with low leptin.

Leptin is super important for staying lean. I wouldn't be able to stay lean year round without getting enough carbs. In a very low body fat state, the only way to keep leptin high is by eating enough carbs. The carb refeed helps a lot when you are already lean and cutting. Usually i would time them around a work out day.


I don't do refeeds anymore as i don't have to cut, i just maintain single digit body fat year round and starchy carbs and GH help immensely for that. Calories/training/rest is still essential of course.


Leptin is pretty much the reason why people get lean and then get fat as soon as the diet is over. When you lose a ton of fat, your leptin levels get very low ; your metabolism and mood decrease significantly and your appetite increases significantly ; you get more cravings and food tastes extremely good. Keeping leptin as high as possible is important for staying lean and not hating your life. If being single digit body fat meant feeling like shit and not eating the foods i like, i would not do it. I always tell people, don't bother getting lean and putting in the work if you're just going to gain it all back anyways, save yourself the trouble.


(Leptin is produced by fat cells, but also increases when you eat food. Starchy carbs help you release the most leptin IE the carb refeed; which also tops off your muscle glycogen to prevent flatness/muscle/strength loss)


Maintaining low body fat is just as important as getting there. Leptin is one the keys to achieving this.

 

[A50#]

Nice find.
I always use it late in the day, don't really like the daytime lethargy from AM dosing, unless it's a low dose.

HGH makes me tired when I use it early in the mornings. I do take it on the mornings I train but otherwise use it in the evenings or before bed.

 

[Biggerp73]

The muscle building effect of AAS is a genomic effect which is why it takes a few weeks to see it, so generally, timing orals and injectables should not have a significant effect on gains.

I doubt this is true, at least if I am understanding your claim correctly.

Increased nitrogen retention, aka, net protein accumulation, would begin immediately upon increased activation of the AR.

It takes weeks to notice significant growth because growth isnt significant enough on day to day basis to notice.

But you can notice immediate effects on day 1-3 with regard to increased muscle size from glycogen, and other factors.

 

[Black Beard]

I doubt this is true, at least if I am understanding your claim correctly.

Increased nitrogen retention, aka, net protein accumulation, would begin immediately upon increased activation of the AR.

It takes weeks to notice significant growth because growth isnt significant enough on day to day basis to notice.

But you can notice immediate effects on day 1-3 with regard to increased muscle size from glycogen, and other factors.

This is still gene expression, AR activation you are talking about is still a genomic effect. Non-genomic effects, ie rapid effects of AAS are independent of the Androgen Receptor. That "growth" that most see in the initial first month is largely a big increase in nitrogen.


This is super heavy microbio/biochem stuff, it's very dry and even bores me sometimes, but basically, most of our growth happens during REST and RECOVERY. Muscles aren't really built in the gym, they are built in the kitchen, chair and bed when you are resting and recovery.


The gym training/weight lifting works through damaging muscle which makes your body BUILD MUSCLE during RECOVERY/repair. How does taking an AAS help you build more protein while you are damaging it in the gym? Directly it cannot. Now if the oral AAS makes you stronger and you can get more PRs and perform better progressive overloading, that is a much more plausible mechanism for timing oral/injectable AAS for training. That is up for the debate.


Like i said, i'm not arguing for or against, i'm stating the facts, physiology and data we have regarding a theory like this. I believe personal experience is just as if not more important than studies and science. I take it all; practical experiences (my own and others), anecdotes, etc. I bet if a do a super deep dive and i might even find something on a subject like this but it doesn't really interest me that much.


"Previous work in the endocrine and neuroendocrine fields has viewed androgen receptors (AR) as a transcription factor activated by testosterone or one of its many metabolites. The bound androgen receptor acts as transcription factor and binds to specific DNA response elements in target gene promoters, causing activation or repression of transcription and subsequently protein synthesis. Over the past two decades evidence has begun to accumulate to implicate androgens, dependent or independent of the AR, in rapid actions at the cellular and organism level. Androgen’s rapid time course of action; effects in the absence or inhibition of the cellular machinery necessary for transcription/translation; and/or the effects of androgens not able to translocate to the nucleus suggest a method of androgen action not initially dependent on genomic mechcanisms (i.e. non-genomic in nature). In the present paper the non-genomic effects of androgens are reviewed, along with a discussion of the possible role non-genomic androgen actions have on animal physiology and behavior."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2386261/

 

[Biggerp73]

This is still gene expression, AR activation you are talking about is still a genomic effect. Non-genomic effects, ie rapid effects of AAS are independent of the Androgen Receptor. That "growth" that most see in the initial first month is largely a big increase in nitrogen.


This is super heavy microbio/biochem stuff, it's very dry and even bores me sometimes, but basically, most of our growth happens during REST and RECOVERY. Muscles aren't really built in the gym, they are built in the kitchen, chair and bed when you are resting and recovery.


The gym training/weight lifting works through damaging muscle which makes your body BUILD MUSCLE during RECOVERY/repair. How does taking an AAS help you build more protein while you are damaging it in the gym? Directly it cannot. Now if the oral AAS makes you stronger and you can get more PRs and perform better progressive overloading, that is a much more plausible mechanism for timing oral/injectable AAS for training. That is up for the debate.


Like i said, i'm not arguing for or against, i'm stating the facts, physiology and data we have regarding a theory like this. I believe personal experience is just as if not more important than studies and science. I take it all; practical experiences (my own and others), anecdotes, etc. I bet if a do a super deep dive and i might even find something on a subject like this but it doesn't really interest me that much.


"Previous work in the endocrine and neuroendocrine fields has viewed androgen receptors (AR) as a transcription factor activated by testosterone or one of its many metabolites. The bound androgen receptor acts as transcription factor and binds to specific DNA response elements in target gene promoters, causing activation or repression of transcription and subsequently protein synthesis. Over the past two decades evidence has begun to accumulate to implicate androgens, dependent or independent of the AR, in rapid actions at the cellular and organism level. Androgen’s rapid time course of action; effects in the absence or inhibition of the cellular machinery necessary for transcription/translation; and/or the effects of androgens not able to translocate to the nucleus suggest a method of androgen action not initially dependent on genomic mechcanisms (i.e. non-genomic in nature). In the present paper the non-genomic effects of androgens are reviewed, along with a discussion of the possible role non-genomic androgen actions have on animal physiology and behavior."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2386261/

No one but Milos Sarcev ever said you grow muscle in the gym.

I understood your previous comment to mean that muscle growth doesn't begin immediately but takes weeks before it starts.

 

[fredmac82]

Would love to take before bed but I’m too hiiiiiiigh to remember

So when do you normally take your dose of GH?

 

[slesh]

So when do you normally take your dose of GH?

When I’m in maintenance mode I take it when I wake up before morning cardio. Currently taking it with my Slin pre workout.

 

[fredmac82]

When I’m in maintenance mode I take it when I wake up before morning cardio. Currently taking it with my Slin pre workout.

Do you take your GH and your Slin at the same time pre-work or do you take your GH first than wait a bit before taking your slin?

 

[slesh]

Do you take your GH and your Slin at the same time pre-work or do you take your GH first than wait a bit before taking your slin?

I do it all in one syringe right before I walk into the gym. Don’t see a reason why it needs to spaced out.

 

[pistonpump]

I was wondering also if HGH administration before bed would suppress natural gh production more to where u would produce less gh naturally because u interupt the natural release at bedtime.

 

[BigZeus]

I like to take my GH in the AM while fasted and immediately post workout.

 

[Hyperemia]

I do it all in one syringe right before I walk into the gym. Don’t see a reason why it needs to spaced out.

I always shoot them together.

1 pin > 2 pins

 

[Knight9]

In the past, I liked taking it pre workout and then also prior to bed. There are slight changes one can make depending on their goals.

In a prep, id perhaps do it up to 3x daily. For mass id take it pre-bed or 10iu MWF. There's also scenarios where pre workout timed with slin may work best.

 

[madg]

I used to do well with evening/bedtime HGH, but now it messes with my sleep. I find my best mood/well-being from SQ AM. I do IF in the mornings too, so i get the fasted lipolysis effect from it too. AM HGH leads to hyperinsulinemia every time you eat a meal within 12 hours of the GH, noting that, i just feel too good using AM to switch back to bedtime/evening.

So you take your shot and stay 12 hour fasted ?

Sry if sound stupid im not english

 

[Black Beard]

So you take your shot and stay 12 hour fasted ?

Sry if sound stupid im not english

No, if i use GH in the AM (Usually taken when i wake up around 7 AM) i fast until lunch time (around 12 PM). So that's about 4-5 hours between GH and my first meal.

 

[Black Beard]

I used to do well with evening/bedtime HGH, but now it messes with my sleep. I find my best mood/well-being from SQ AM. I do IF in the mornings too, so i get the fasted lipolysis effect from it too. AM HGH leads to hyperinsulinemia every time you eat a meal within 12 hours of the GH, noting that, i just feel too good using AM to switch back to bedtime/evening.

Updating this: Tried evening again the past week or two with no sleep issues at 3-6 IU per injection. Dosing at or after 10 PM did the trick for me and using IM instead of SQ.


I recall now that when i used to use GH in the evening without sleep issues, it was IM to the delts and later at night. Probably has to do when the GH is peaking/elevated before and during sleep. Who knows, but it's working.

 

[goback2013]

Updating this: Tried evening again the past week or two with no sleep issues at 3-6 IU per injection. Dosing at or after 10 PM did the trick for me and using IM instead of SQ.


I recall now that when i used to use GH in the evening without sleep issues, it was IM to the delts and later at night. Probably has to do when the GH is peaking/elevated before and during sleep. Who knows, but it's working.

What do you think the difference is between sq and im ?

 

[Black Beard]

What do you think the difference is between sq and im ?

IM tends to have higher peak but shorter duration in the body. Technically, you want that GH in and out for optimal insulin sensitivity (for those using HRT/performance doses vs bodybuilding/added insulin). With SQ, you are more likely to have elevated GH in the blood by the time you wake up and eat breakfast or lunch.


Technically, we have our sharpest peak and release of GH within 30-90 minutes of falling asleep and its pretty much gone by the time we wake up. So maybe taking it IM mimics that closer for me than SQ (Where SQ will elevate GH levels and stay elevated for much longer).


Honestly shouldn't matter too much for most intents and purposes, but for me seems to have worked to fix the issue.


See below: 24 being midnight and 08 being 8 AM. You can see how an IM pre-bed shot would mimic this more than a SQ shot. (Big spike with faster drop to baseline)


(The picture is the natural HGH secretion pattern of a 28 and 30 year old)