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Lee labrada low sodium Vs Stan high sodium? why diffrent opinions?

sodium cause water retention so i dont understand how you can be hard on high sodium in the offseasson when carbs are high same time shouldn't you be soft and bloated with high sodium?
sodium does not cause water retention, only its excess which raises aldosterone, but too little of it does exactly the same - but if you train intensively and have a lot of muscle, your body loses a lot of sodium and it is almost impossible to overdo it unless you eat salt spoons lol
 
sodium does not cause water retention, only its excess which raises aldosterone, but too little of it does exactly the same - but if you train intensively and have a lot of muscle, your body loses a lot of sodium and it is almost impossible to overdo it unless you eat salt spoons lol
yes i train intensively 6 days and weak and sweat al ot during my workouts. so i should increase my sodium? I am thinking give your tips a try and see what happen will up my sodium to 8000mg. I am on 4000mg a day now.
 
Always higher sodium for me , I work a labor job outside and train at night so I need it , also I've always been a salty sweater , all my clothes get rings in them
 
yes i train intensively 6 days and weak and sweat al ot during my workouts. so i should increase my sodium? I am thinking give your tips a try and see what happen will up my sodium to 8000mg. I am on 4000mg a day now.
you have to find out for yourself what it will do for you - no one can know it
 
@La_pantera Take a look at the list of supps I posted earlier.

Add a scoop of G1M prior to cardio or strength sessions.

Increased sodium = increased blood volume = increased performance for all measurable metrics

Easy way to titrate up is establish your current baseline and add 500mg per active day.
 
@La_pantera Take a look at the list of supps I posted earlier.

Add a scoop of G1M prior to cardio or strength sessions.

Increased sodium = increased blood volume = increased performance for all measurable metrics

Easy way to titrate up is establish your current baseline and add 500mg per active day.
I saw your supps but i cant get this supps since i live in thailand. so your recomm its better to up sodium 500mg per day instead of jumping high direct?
 
High sodium is the way for someone with a lot of muscle and activity.
 
I season the hell out of my food with Toney’s as well as eat a pretty high sodium diet , 4 V8 juice a day. Last time i added it all up I was over 14g a day.
This was my last set of labs.
your body generally won’t retain excess minerals it can’t use , it simply flushes them out to maintain a healthy balance , just like water. If you nor drink a gallon a day increase it to 3 gallon a day will not make you retain 2 ga of water , you just piss it out.

now when you restrict sodium and water below what the body needs that will set you up to retain it when you finally do have an influx of either , the body will super compensate and store it for the next “drought”
 

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I season the hell out of my food with Toney’s as well as eat a pretty high sodium diet , 4 V8 juice a day. Last time i added it all up I was over 14g a day.
This was my last set of labs.
your body generally won’t retain excess minerals it can’t use , it simply flushes them out to maintain a healthy balance , just like water. If you nor drink a gallon a day increase it to 3 gallon a day will not make you retain 2 ga of water , you just piss it out.

now when you restrict sodium and water below what the body needs that will set you up to retain it when you finally do have an influx of either , the body will super compensate and store it for the next “drought”
Wow perfect sodium levels on 14.000mg sodium or 14g salt? how do you get in 14.000mg potassium to level it up to 1:1 ratio
 
Marssel: water follow sodium so if you drink alot and pee alot wouldent that make you loose alot of sodium?

Luki7788: when you mean alot what intake are we talking about?
So the hairs in your renal tubes retain most of the minerals you need which is why I mentioned sweating and heat, but even in the desert as a Marine having cammies with dried salt flaking off them when never took salt tablets and always just drank lots of water, more than a lot of bodybuilders, yes sodium can help with pumps especially if you are deficient but we generally are not. Salt loading during prep to flush salt later yes and sometimes doing two hours of cardio plus posing plus training maybe some salt would help. I’m not advocating low sodium just reasonable normal amounts. Plus getting too much of sodium, potassium, or calcium or getting them not in proportion is worthless anyway. I simply believe that we don’t need extra salt and I’ve seen this in many professional athletes and bodybuilders not needing salt loading now here I only push bc we as bodybuilders as opposed to other sports or even gear users tend to have health issues from kidney/BP related affairs. So for us more than others salt loading seems foolish and unnecessary especially since we all take drugs that cause edema like test, GH, slin. We only need to hold so much water and I’ve had to do more work helping people shed water than ever needing to salt load. Again all water contains sodium except distilled. To become deficient in sodium one needs a low sodium diet, a ton of sweating, and bad luck really. Those out there that want to salt load rock on I’m not saying don’t but those that aren’t shouldn’t imo believe it will make a difference especially not in relation to the health issues going with lots of salt intake as it will stress the renal system. We ingest insane amounts of salt compared to humans just a few centuries ago our bodies have not adjusted to the modern high sodium diet shit even organic chicken breast is loaded with sodium before you even season it. We just don’t need to load in general maybe there are a few exceptions and as to Lee Labrada and his son they are only both icons, champions and healthy so what could Lee know about the game right? Not trying to be antagonistic at all again you do you if it’s your thing but I don’t think it’s good for people to start salt loading in some belief that it will be efficacious to much of a degree definitely no where near the potential health risk in doing so. Yes I drink 2-3 gallons a day year round have since prolly 1997 in USMC recruit training weighing in back then at 156 lbs and salt gas never been something I needed more of.
 
I season the hell out of my food with Toney’s as well as eat a pretty high sodium diet , 4 V8 juice a day. Last time i added it all up I was over 14g a day.
This was my last set of labs.
your body generally won’t retain excess minerals it can’t use , it simply flushes them out to maintain a healthy balance , just like water. If you nor drink a gallon a day increase it to 3 gallon a day will not make you retain 2 ga of water , you just piss it out.

now when you restrict sodium and water below what the body needs that will set you up to retain it when you finally do have an influx of either , the body will super compensate and store it for the next “drought”
Agreed I’m not advocating restriction just not lauding it intentionally beyond what’s in your normal daily diet. That’s your norm g2g I don’t think adding another 5gms woukd make you better off and yes it would get pissed out eventually but on a day in day out basis that’s renal stress with little or no pay off. I salt my food too but not extra for a pump
 
Here's a few thinghs that was written by Lyle McDonald....

Low or Zero Sodium Intake​

One of the most prevalent beliefs among physique athletes is that sodium must be kept low (or nonexistent in extreme cases). This, of course, has to do with the issue of water retention that sodium tends to cause, blurring definition.

Now, let’s ignore for a second that sodium is a required nutrient in the body and that eliminating any required nutrient generally has negative effects. That should be obvious to anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size.

But let’s be realistic: definition only counts on contest day anyhow, what does it matter if you look a little smooth for the 12-16 weeks running up to the show? Adding to that is that is the fact sodium only causes water retention when folks move from very low to very high sodium.

This is why that piece of pizza you snuck on your diet caused you to bloat like crazy. You see, when you reduce sodium too much, the body increases levels of a hormone called aldosterone which is involved in water balance (causing water retention).

When you throw sodium back into the mix, the body holds water. But guess what happens when you increase/maintain sodium at reasonable levels? The body decreases aldosterone. So sodium no longer causes any problem with bloating. Read through that again: sodium only causes bloating when you make the switch from low to high sodium, a few days on a higher sodium intake and everything will normalize anyhow.

Add to that the fact that physique folks want low aldosterone going into their contest. Removing sodium from the diet 4-12 weeks out cause more problems than it solves. Quite in fact, cutting edge contest gurus are actually keeping sodium intake high up until shortly before a show these days as it makes it EASIER to drop water a day or two out.

But none of that has to do with fat loss. To understand the role of sodium in fat loss, I need to tell you about a hormone called ghrelin. Released from the gut, ghrelin goes up when you diet and goes down when you eat. Along with leptin, peptide YY and a host of other hormones, ghrelin is involved in energy balance and appetite. When ghrelin goes up, so does hunger, metabolic rate drops and fat storage is increased.

Now, unfortunately, increased ghrelin (along with lowered leptin, etc.) is part and parcel of dieting. However, a recent study found that individuals placed on a sodium restricted diet showed a larger post-meal increase in ghrelin. Essentially, extreme sodium restriction just makes problems related to ghrelin worse.

In addition to effects on ghrelin, it also turns out that whole body hydration status affects protein balance and lipolysis with dehydration causing decreased lipolysis and protein loss and hyperhydration improving lipolysis and sparing body protein.

Many coaches have started increasing sodium intakes during contest prep and are having no problem bringing in their athletes lean and dry. At most they manipulate sodium a bit right before the show but even this is becoming less common. Modern bodybuilders will have some sodium on the day of the show as this tends to keep them full and vascular.
 
Another by Lyle...
This one is toward lower carbs, but it still applies. Also, a lot of people who have issues with higher electrolytes run into problems when they do not also drink enough fluids to go along with it.

Muscle Cramps on Low-Carbohydrate Diets​

Question: I have been following a very low-carbohydrate diet and taking the ephedrine/caffeine stack for the past 4 months. Recently I have been having problems with cramping in the gym, I find that if I get too close to failure on a set, I get very bad cramps. I’m drinking plenty of water and taking a multivitamin and I can’t figure out what’s wrong. Please help.

Answer: Cramping is unfortunately a very complicated topic and while many simple solutions are often thrown out, they don’t always seem to work. Usually the culprit is issues with hydration per se or electrolyte levels; electrolytes are things like potassium, calcium, sodium and magnesium they are involved in transmission of the electrical signals in the body. Hence their name.

I’d note that hydration and electrolyte levels are intertwined as the amount of water in the body affects the relative concentrations of the electrolytes in the body. So if there is more water present, the relative concentration of each of the electrolytes will be lower because the water will dilute them. By the same token, if you are dehydrated, the relative concentrations of the electrolytes goes up.

Most ideas about cramping tend to focus on a single electrolyte, potassium was blamed for quite some time which is the basic origin of the ‘eat a banana to stop cramping’ idea. Bananas are an excellent source of dietary potassium.

The problem is that cramping is way more complicated than this and can be related to all of the different electrolytes, not simply the absolute amounts of each but the interactions between them. Fixing the problem often entails trying different things to figure out what’s causing the problems for a given individual.

Now, a potential issue specific to very low-carbohydrate diets (less than 100 grams of carbohydrate per day) and cramping per se is that these diets cause water loss. As well, the water losses can vary massively from a low of perhaps 1-2 pounds up to 10-15 pounds in larger individuals. As well, very low-carb diets cause electrolyte losses and this can cause cramping and fatigue.

As I detailed in my first book The Ketogenic Diet, very low-carb dieters need to supplement their daily electrolyte intake with the following at a bare minimum:

  • 3-5 grams extra sodium hydrochloride
  • 1 gram potassium
  • 300 mg magnesium
Not only should this help with cramping issues, this has also been shown to fix some of the fatigue issues that often beset people when they start ketogenic diets. Of course, an adequate calcium intake is important under all conditions for bone health. How much you need depends solely on how much dairy foods you’re eating so whether or not you need to supplement extra will depend on that variable.

While you generally have to supplement magnesium separately, you can cover at least some of the potassium and sodium requirements with something like LiteSalt. This is a table salt that contains 1/2 sodium chloride (standard table salt) and 1/2 potassium chloride. It tastes just like normal salt but gives a better balance of sodium and potassium. I’d note that pure potassium salt tends to be a bit bitter which is why I don’t recommend it; most won’t use it regularly.

So the above would be a good first step. I’d note that empirically high doses of the amino acid l-taurine seems to help with cramps in some people. If your hydration is good and you’re getting the above electrolytes but are still having problems with cramping, you should consider adding l-taurine to the mix.

I should also mention that stimulants in general and the Ephedrine/caffeine stack (as well as the drug clenbuterol) can cause cramps. This is even more true on low-carbohydrate diets. The reason is that they both cause calcium to flow into the muscles, essentially putting them in a low-level state of contraction. When you put heavy training on top of this, cramping often occurs. This is likely just an interaction between the low-carbohydrate diet causing dehydration and electrolyte loss, the EC/Clen causing calcium to go into the muscle and then throwing training on top of it. It’s not very much fun.

I’d note that even for individuals who aren’t on very low-carbohydrate diets, cramping can still occur especially if they do a lot of training in the heat; as well some of the extremist attitudes towards diet such as ‘Never eat sodium’ among bodybuilders and other trainees can cause problems. Again, this can be related to both hydration and electrolyte imbalance. Unfortunately, it’s nearly impossible to give more than vague guidelines on this.

Recent research has found that water and salt loss during training can vary about 10-fold between people. This makes giving a specific single guideline (e.g. drink 1 gallon water) impossible even if people try to do it to keep things simple.

At least in terms of training, the old guideline was that you should weigh yourself before and after workout and for every 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of weight lost, you needed 1 liter (32 oz, 4 cups) of fluid to replace it. This turns out to be wrong, you actually need 1.5 liters (48 oz, 6 cups) of fluid to replace every 1kg of weight lost.

Please note that you don’t have to pound this right after training, but you need to consume that much extra over the course of the day to cover losses. Athletes who do a lot of training in the heat who don’t replace fluid losses can get into trouble pretty quickly.

As well, note that plain water is actually the worst rehydration drink out there. Rather, fluids containing sodium and potassium are retained far better than those that don’t. Milk also provides good carbohydrates and high-quality protein so it does double duty after training if you can stomach it.

I’d note that, again, weight loss during a given bout of training can vary many fold. One athlete might lose 1-2 kg (2-4.5 lbs) and another might lose 8kg (17 lbs). Like I said, it’s impossible to give a specific value of how much fluid to consume because of this. Weighing before and after for a few workouts will tell you what your personal hydration requirements are.

I’d also mention that sodium losses during activity are just as variable and calculations show that one athlete might only lose a gram or two of sodium during training while another can lose upwards of 20 grams. I am currently unaware of any non-laboratory way to determine sodium losses during training.

But I also don’t believe in heavily restricting sodium for athletes; training in the heat requires that electrolytes be replaced and liberal use of something like the LiteSalt I mentioned above is a good idea for a number of reasons.

So anyhow, that’s sort of a basic look at cramping. It’s a place where I wish I could give more firm guidelines but they simply don’t exist. There is just too much variability and what works for one may not work for another. In general, it tends to be related to hydration and electrolyte intake and this tends to be more of an issue on very low-carbohydrate diets. But it can become an issue on carb-based diets as well.

So make sure you’re getting sufficient fluids, don’t skimp on salt (and get a sodium/potassium salt) and consider supplementation if you’re still having issues. Some people seem more prone to have issues with stimulants as well so if they are causing cramping, you may need to drop them completely.
 
Wow perfect sodium levels on 14.000mg sodium or 14g salt? how do you get in 14.000mg potassium to level it up to 1:1 ratio
That was total sodium from what I could calculate.
I honestly never worried about trying to balance the sodium and potassium intake , when i first started worrying about nutrition at all I was told by one of the big old guys in the gym that competed "just make sure you get more then enough , eat you fruit and sweet potatoes and salt your food and it will all work out"
I season my food to taste , eat fruit and veggies and everything else falls into place.
The only time I ever really paid attention to sodium intake was trying to peak for a show and the more I tried to fuck with it and manipulate it the harder it was to catch and balance.
 
I would think dealing with a stable level, whether low of high with an adequate water intake would lead to better results in general. Rather then trying to micromanage it right at the end of prep.
 
I would think dealing with a stable level, whether low of high with an adequate water intake would lead to better results in general. Rather then trying to micromanage it right at the end of prep.
Not new news but worth mentioning . . .

“The percentage of water in the body varies slightly, depending on factors such as age and sex, but is usually within the 45–75% range. There is more water in lean muscle than there is in fatty tissue. Typically, a female body contains a lower percentage of water than a male one.”

I think the number for the the percentage of water in a muscle is ~ 76%. Hence the accuracy of hydrostatic / water weighing.

That is my boobs float 🙂

Just sayin.
 
Not new news but worth mentioning . . .

“The percentage of water in the body varies slightly, depending on factors such as age and sex, but is usually within the 45–75% range. There is more water in lean muscle than there is in fatty tissue. Typically, a female body contains a lower percentage of water than a male one.”

I think the number for the the percentage of water in a muscle is ~ 76%. Hence the accuracy of hydrostatic / water weighing.

That is my boobs float 🙂

Just sayin.
I should never need a life preserver............unfortunately!
 
There's huge individual variation in the amount of electrolytes lost in sweat. Some people can barely sweat, others look like they just got out the shower. The needs to be replaced vary widely. Stan does and always has lifted very heavy, Labrada the opposite. I've seen lots of track athletes that heavily salt there food, but clearly have little to no water retention. The window of variance is just very wide probably 1.5- 20g of salt per day.
 
So the hairs in your renal tubes retain most of the minerals you need which is why I mentioned sweating and heat, but even in the desert as a Marine having cammies with dried salt flaking off them when never took salt tablets and always just drank lots of water, more than a lot of bodybuilders, yes sodium can help with pumps especially if you are deficient but we generally are not. Salt loading during prep to flush salt later yes and sometimes doing two hours of cardio plus posing plus training maybe some salt would help. I’m not advocating low sodium just reasonable normal amounts. Plus getting too much of sodium, potassium, or calcium or getting them not in proportion is worthless anyway. I simply believe that we don’t need extra salt and I’ve seen this in many professional athletes and bodybuilders not needing salt loading now here I only push bc we as bodybuilders as opposed to other sports or even gear users tend to have health issues from kidney/BP related affairs. So for us more than others salt loading seems foolish and unnecessary especially since we all take drugs that cause edema like test, GH, slin. We only need to hold so much water and I’ve had to do more work helping people shed water than ever needing to salt load. Again all water contains sodium except distilled. To become deficient in sodium one needs a low sodium diet, a ton of sweating, and bad luck really. Those out there that want to salt load rock on I’m not saying don’t but those that aren’t shouldn’t imo believe it will make a difference especially not in relation to the health issues going with lots of salt intake as it will stress the renal system. We ingest insane amounts of salt compared to humans just a few centuries ago our bodies have not adjusted to the modern high sodium diet shit even organic chicken breast is loaded with sodium before you even season it. We just don’t need to load in general maybe there are a few exceptions and as to Lee Labrada and his son they are only both icons, champions and healthy so what could Lee know about the game right? Not trying to be antagonistic at all again you do you if it’s your thing but I don’t think it’s good for people to start salt loading in some belief that it will be efficacious to much of a degree definitely no where near the potential health risk in doing so. Yes I drink 2-3 gallons a day year round have since prolly 1997 in USMC recruit training weighing in back then at 156 lbs and salt gas never been something I needed more of.
OOOHHH RAAHHH DevilDog!
 

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