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Still Infertile

Flex500

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I think the guys getting their girls prego within 1-2 months never went down to zero sperm count... Even if they have 1-2 mil, that’s still something so their system isn’t completely shut down having to restart the whole process. They’re still producing...

During Spermatogenisis men can create about 1,500 sperm per second... That’s around 124 million per day assuming the perfect environment is there for them (hormones, vitamins and nutrients in the body, health etc..)

So it’s easy to see that if someone has 2 million sperm to start and they add hormones like HCG/HMG which will put that into overdrive where they can have 20, 30, 100 million sperm in a shorter amount of time... Their process never stopped...

Where as guys in the zero count position, have to start from zero and then within about 64-74 days you’ll start to see where you’re at.. Maybe it’s 5 million, or maybe it’s 100 million.. But remember that you’re starting from zero so it’ll take that extra time to really know for sure..

Let’s say all is going well and you’re in fact in full spermotogenises mode; in 8 weeks, none of those sperm you’ve been producing since that first injection of HCG/HMG are mature enough to leave the body for conception..

EXACTY! I've had many analysis done on myself and I'm always 15-25mil on test alone. Never below that even on 300mgs of test for two straight years at one point. Think about how much easier that would be for me or others in that situation to come back when you never actually even drop below 15mil.

For the OP you nailed it. It is going to take time...and that is ok. If I was the OP I'd actually plan on a full 90 days before it's "go time" and if it happens before that cool but in really it's going to be the 3 month mark to one year mark where things should be hitting more normal.
 

Needmassquick

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both including myself perma blasting high test, tren, deca, npp for 2+ years.

We all took clomid, nolva, hcg and HMG or FSH(was called gonal F pens pretty sure)
Man, lucky guys. I've not taken clomid or nolva yet but I just messaged my doc about adding clomid. I take follistim which is just another version of gonal F.

I think the guys getting their girls prego within 1-2 months never went down to zero sperm count... Even if they have 1-2 mil, that’s still something so their system isn’t completely shut down having to restart the whole process. They’re still producing...

During Spermatogenisis men can create about 1,500 sperm per second... That’s around 124 million per day assuming the perfect environment is there for them (hormones, vitamins and nutrients in the body, health etc..)

So it’s easy to see that if someone has 2 million sperm to start and they add hormones like HCG/HMG which will put that into overdrive where they can have 20, 30, 100 million sperm in a shorter amount of time... Their process never stopped...

Where as guys in the zero count position, have to start from zero and then within about 64-74 days you’ll start to see where you’re at.. Maybe it’s 5 million, or maybe it’s 100 million.. But remember that you’re starting from zero so it’ll take that extra time to really know for sure..

Let’s say all is going well and you’re in fact in full spermotogenises mode; in 8 weeks, none of those sperm you’ve been producing since that first injection of HCG/HMG are mature enough to leave the body for conception..

Gotcha, well thank you, if that's the case that's encouraging
 

Flex500

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Man, lucky guys. I've not taken clomid or nolva yet but I just messaged my doc about adding clomid. I take follistim which is just another version of gonal F.



Gotcha, well thank you, if that's the case that's encouraging

You will be good man just give it some time. Best of luck to you!
 

Needmassquick

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You will be good man just give it some time. Best of luck to you!

Thank you :)

In case anyone is curious, here is the response from my endocrinologist when I asked him if I needed to up the dose, or if I should add clomid:

"I'm sensitive to the cost of these meds.
Continue Follistim 75 International Units and current HCG dose.
No benefit to adding Clomid if these are used.
"
 

Alistair*

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Do you guys get your HCG in 5000iu vials? When you split that into 3 shots, do you store the other 2 in the fridge to be used 2 and 4 days later or should the dose that’s getting used 4 days later go in the freezer until the day of the shot?
 

Alistair*

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Never mind, I found an article that states HCG mixed with bac water will last several days refrigerated. I’m curious if it’s the same for HMG though, if 150iu vial is split into two shots, how long the second shot lasts in the fridge before potency is diminished.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Never mind, I found an article that states HCG mixed with bac water will last several days refrigerated. I’m curious if it’s the same for HMG though, if 150iu vial is split into two shots, how long the second shot lasts in the fridge before potency is diminished.
My gut tells me doing it that week would be fine but I don’t have anything medical to show you.
 

maldorf

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For those interested, it looks like HCG does in fact suppress FSH production and so HCG alone will not result in increased FSH as one bodybuilding doctor falsely told me it would. This makes way more sense now. But yes HCG alone definitely increases sperm production in suppressed individuals.

The second study totally shocked me though, normal men actually see a MAJOR reduction of spermatogenesis with HCG alone. Meaning guys who are already normal and take HCG will have a lot less spermatogenesis. In light of seeing that HCG will suppress FSH this makes sense but I never would have guessed lower sperm count with HCG if a normal (non AAS/TRT using) male took it.

The doses used in these studies would suggest I should up my doses of each though
Yes, there is a negative feedback loop when you take HCG. Its a reason I think that taking it as part of PCT might actually make recovery harder in the long run. You feel great while taking it but once you stop, you crash very hard.
 

Needmassquick

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Yes, there is a negative feedback loop when you take HCG. Its a reason I think that taking it as part of PCT might actually make recovery harder in the long run. You feel great while taking it but once you stop, you crash very hard.

I've been pleased to find my endogenous production of testosterone has bounced back so well with the HCG/FSH and I've not lost much size compared to TRT but the real test will be when I come off all of that and try to get my pituitary back online. I'm concerned that that will be a tough time and I'll end up losing a lot. Time will tell.
 

maldorf

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I've been pleased to find my endogenous production of testosterone has bounced back so well with the HCG/FSH and I've not lost much size compared to TRT but the real test will be when I come off all of that and try to get my pituitary back online. I'm concerned that that will be a tough time and I'll end up losing a lot. Time will tell.
It is rough! Hang tight and don't give in. I tried for almost 12 months, but mine never came back. My total test was stuck around 40 that whole time. Tough it out as long as you can because apparently it can come back.
 

Needmassquick

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It is rough! Hang tight and don't give in. I tried for almost 12 months, but mine never came back. My total test was stuck around 40 that whole time. Tough it out as long as you can because apparently it can come back.

Man that's tough, I'm guessing you lost a ton of muscle? But also that was probably after your heart attack so hard to tell which was a bigger issue.


By the way for anyone still reading, should HCG/FSH only be taken in the morning? I've had to rush out several times now in the morning and end up taking them at night, hope that's not an issue. I assume it would probably be better to be in the morning since that's when testosterone is produced but hopefully not a big issue.
 

maldorf

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Man that's tough, I'm guessing you lost a ton of muscle? But also that was probably after your heart attack so hard to tell which was a bigger issue.


By the way for anyone still reading, should HCG/FSH only be taken in the morning? I've had to rush out several times now in the morning and end up taking them at night, hope that's not an issue. I assume it would probably be better to be in the morning since that's when testosterone is produced but hopefully not a big issue.
I didnt lose near as much as I feared I would. I am still a bit surprised that it wasnt worse. The main thing I had trouble with was that my joints and whole body ached a lot, recovery from lifts was slow. Of course I lost a lot of strength, but it was right after my heart attack and I couldnt put the stress on my heart like I did in the past. Life changed big time.
 

Flex500

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I've been pleased to find my endogenous production of testosterone has bounced back so well with the HCG/FSH and I've not lost much size compared to TRT but the real test will be when I come off all of that and try to get my pituitary back online. I'm concerned that that will be a tough time and I'll end up losing a lot. Time will tell.

some of it just depends how much money you want to spend. I am 100% off my trt and taking hcg and hmg right now but I’m also taking 5 IU of hgh, 100mgs of proviron a day and 5-10 IU of slin on training days. I’m not going to gain anything but I’ll keep “the look” the entire time. I’m also actually taking Dante’s supplement abolic at 6 caps a day.

As long as I stay on the hcg my test levels will be 650-800 and then after my wife gets pregnant I’ll go right back to trt. If I just stopped the hcg my test levels would fall immediately.

oh...I don’t recommend the proviron. A few old studies convinced me it helps with spermatogenesis and I’ve had good luck with my counts but that could be pure luck and you can make the case the proviron may hold me back.
 

Needmassquick

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some of it just depends how much money you want to spend. I am 100% off my trt and taking hcg and hmg right now but I’m also taking 5 IU of hgh, 100mgs of proviron a day and 5-10 IU of slin on training days. I’m not going to gain anything but I’ll keep “the look” the entire time. I’m also actually taking Dante’s supplement abolic at 6 caps a day.

As long as I stay on the hcg my test levels will be 650-800 and then after my wife gets pregnant I’ll go right back to trt. If I just stopped the hcg my test levels would fall immediately.

oh...I don’t recommend the proviron. A few old studies convinced me it helps with spermatogenesis and I’ve had good luck with my counts but that could be pure luck and you can make the case the proviron may hold me back.

Yea I would guess the proviron will add to suppression, but not much of an issue if you're taking HCG and HMG.

But I'm also referring to when I eventually go fully off. After we successfully get pregnant I'd like to see if I can get full endogenous production back with no medication at all. My understanding is that this will involve coming off the HCG/HMG and then starting some clomid but that's at least month's away. If I can get back to fully natural status with testosterone in the 4-600ng/dl range (where I was naturally before) then great. I'd probably stay off TRT for the foreseeable future until we're done having 2-4 kids and I need it because I'm 40+.

Alternatively, if my levels just plummet and don't return, obviously I'll have to go back to TRT. I know GotGame gave it like a year as did Maldorf and they never came back
 

Flex500

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Yea I would guess the proviron will add to suppression, but not much of an issue if you're taking HCG and HMG.

But I'm also referring to when I eventually go fully off. After we successfully get pregnant I'd like to see if I can get full endogenous production back with no medication at all. My understanding is that this will involve coming off the HCG/HMG and then starting some clomid but that's at least month's away. If I can get back to fully natural status with testosterone in the 4-600ng/dl range (where I was naturally before) then great. I'd probably stay off TRT for the foreseeable future until we're done having 2-4 kids and I need it because I'm 40+.

Alternatively, if my levels just plummet and don't return, obviously I'll have to go back to TRT. I know GotGame gave it like a year as did Maldorf and they never came back

Ahhh yes sir that makes sense. I have never given it enough time after coming off the HCG/HMG mine plummets but my plan is really to just come off the trt 3-5 months a year and this works pretty well. There are guys like Pete Rubbish and others on youtube that have been successful bringing it back after years on.

In fact, I bet I could as well but don't have the desire to try. Keep us posted I'd love to see how this guys and I bet you actually have a good shot at getting it to the 500+ range.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Yea I would guess the proviron will add to suppression, but not much of an issue if you're taking HCG and HMG.

But I'm also referring to when I eventually go fully off. After we successfully get pregnant I'd like to see if I can get full endogenous production back with no medication at all. My understanding is that this will involve coming off the HCG/HMG and then starting some clomid but that's at least month's away. If I can get back to fully natural status with testosterone in the 4-600ng/dl range (where I was naturally before) then great. I'd probably stay off TRT for the foreseeable future until we're done having 2-4 kids and I need it because I'm 40+.

Alternatively, if my levels just plummet and don't return, obviously I'll have to go back to TRT. I know GotGame gave it like a year as did Maldorf and they never came back
Man I’m really pulling for you. Keep this thread updated if it helps. You have multiple dudes here in your corner pulling for you. This is gonna work!
 

Needmassquick

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Ahhh yes sir that makes sense. I have never given it enough time after coming off the HCG/HMG mine plummets but my plan is really to just come off the trt 3-5 months a year and this works pretty well. There are guys like Pete Rubbish and others on youtube that have been successful bringing it back after years on.

In fact, I bet I could as well but don't have the desire to try. Keep us posted I'd love to see how this guys and I bet you actually have a good shot at getting it to the 500+ range.

Thanks, will do.

Do you come off 3-5 months per year just to get your balls back online yearly?

Man I’m really pulling for you. Keep this thread updated if it helps. You have multiple dudes here in your corner pulling for you. This is gonna work!

I appreciate the support!
 

Flex500

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Thanks, will do.

Do you come off 3-5 months per year just to get your balls back online yearly?



I appreciate the support!

It's more for health reasons (or maybe peace of mind). My bloodwork is always quite good but it's impeccable when I'm "off" and I just really try to spend more and more of the year off anything remotely androgenic (I really don't even cycle much, a cycle for me is adding 200mgs of primo to my trt).

This year is a little different because I'm actually trying to get my wife pregnant. If I wasn't doing that I'd be taking about half the hcg I am now, no hmg, and just go like that for a few months or so.

While the impact may be small my LDL will drop to 70 when I do this and it usually will stay ~120 so for whatever reason that shows me taking synthetic test has an impact on keeping my ldl higher. Kind of weird.
 

Needmassquick

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It's more for health reasons (or maybe peace of mind). My bloodwork is always quite good but it's impeccable when I'm "off" and I just really try to spend more and more of the year off anything remotely androgenic (I really don't even cycle much, a cycle for me is adding 200mgs of primo to my trt).

This year is a little different because I'm actually trying to get my wife pregnant. If I wasn't doing that I'd be taking about half the hcg I am now, no hmg, and just go like that for a few months or so.

While the impact may be small my LDL will drop to 70 when I do this and it usually will stay ~120 so for whatever reason that shows me taking synthetic test has an impact on keeping my ldl higher. Kind of weird.

What is your dose of TRT? I know many will argue TRT is just as healthy as fully natural but I think the data is still ambigous there.

I was surprised to find that going from 100-150mg TRT down to just HCG/HMG did not seem to benefit my lipids. 2mg of arimidex per week did drop my HDL but surprisingly it's no better now natural compared to 100-150mg TRT + 1mg arimidex. LDL and Trigs are about the same as well.
 

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